Property Lines, Easements & Fences with Neighbors

Parent Q&A

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  • Buy half of neighbor’s lot

    Apr 20, 2024

    Hello! We are looking into buying half of our neighbor’s lot, to create a subdivision of their lot and integrate it into ours.  They do not use half of it - it is a rundown garden, and we could use the space.

    Does somebody know what the legal process is (beyond the online information of the Application for submission in the Berkeley Municipal Code) and how does it work?  Is this doable and are there additional guidelines available or a person that we can contact to understand how to do it?

    Thanks in advance!

    The process would be a lot line adjustment. It's doable as long as the resultant lots (yours & your neighbors) still meet the City's zoning requirements. You'd need to hire a surveyor to do this work.

    The first professional you would need is a surveyor to define the lot split, followed by an appraiser to value it, than an engineer to create both new parcels concurrent with an attorney for the purchase & sale contract. Then a title company.  I would not think this needs to be a subdivision (more complicated) but maybe there's some special circumstances. You'd want to make sure your neighbor's new parcel doesn't decrease in size below minimum lot size in your zoning district, and that your new lot doesn't exceed maximum lot size (unusual). I haven't done this but I am a city planner who has worked for local cities.

  • Hi all - was wondering if anyone ran into a similar problem. We have an easement agreement with our neighbor where he needs access through our driveway to access his house. Between our houses on the side is a strip of land that is about 10’ at the narrowest and 40’ at the widest. Due to issues with our trash cans being on the street, we moved up them up to our house and placed it next to our house on that strip of land. These trash cans cannot extend more than 24” out of our house. There is no other good locations to place these trash cans without being an extreme inconvenience to us. He is claiming our trash cans are extending a few inches into his property and started going out of his way to curb his vehicle in a way that blocks our trash can in and in a way his vehicle partially on our property. He further claims that his property line starts at our house without providing any evidence. After we got our house plan filed with the County that clearly shows the 5’ offset, he requested we drop a certified copy of our drawing in his mailbox which I did not do. 

    At this point, I know he is lying. He is still parking his vehicle that way. I know the best option is to spend the $5k to get the property line surveyed and spend another $15k to fence it off but I’m frustrated at the injustice that he can make a wild claim like that but the burden of proof is on us along with spending $20k to boot! We spent $600 to talk to a lawyer and she basically said yes he’s being a jerk but it’ll cost like $50k if we go to court and we likely won’t get back the lawyer fee or the surveying cost.  The court system isn’t made for individual claims like these. And since this is a civil dispute, calling OPD is a moot point. 
     

    Wondering if anyone has gone through this and if they had any other advice? 

    Have you considered mediation? It's often a good choice for neighbor disputes. The mediator holds space for parties to have a difficult conversation, helping all participants to feel heard, understood, and respected. It's voluntary, confidential, and designed to foster joint decision-making. Everyone having their say and crafting a resolution together creates a durable outcome. Of course, if takes two to tango. There's no guarantee that he will be willing to participate or that you will reach resolution if he does, but offering to sit down and talk communicates that you want to find a solution that works for both of you. And you will be in relationship with this neighbor for a long time after this conflict passes.  SEEDS in Berkeley offers community mediation services www.seedscrc.org  and there are lots of private practitioners.  Full disclosure - I am an attorney-mediator and a biased, zealous advocate for mediation. It works!

    So sorry. Neighbor issues are the worst. I’d suck it up and build the fence; it’ll help if you ever sell your home as well. Best of luck. 
     

    If you think that you might want to get a survey, I advise that you get on the surveyors wait-list. We got a survey last year and the wait-lists were 6-9 months for several surveyors we talked to. The survey including putting markers cost us $6500 and that was the lowest price we were quoted. Do you have a legal easement agreement? This might impact the fence depending on what is in the agreement.

    I'm so sorry.  A few years ago we had a dispute with a neighbor that was utterly exhausting and made home feel anything but homey no matter how fair, kind, or understanding we tried to be.  Our problem only ended because the guy decided to move.  My advice is to log absolutely everything with photos, videos, and written notes, and make it no secret that you're doing this.  Make sure when you collect such evidence that you are clearly standing on your own nondisputed property so you can't be accused of trespassing.  When it became clear that we were painstakingly collecting evidence, our neighbor got scared and decided to quit fighting.  The only other thing that might help is to hire a mitigator/facilitator, but there's no legal force behind that.  I wonder if providing the certified copy might help settle things?  I know you're angry and therefore don't want to do anything extra for the jerk, but maybe he thinks you're hiding something?  Finally, perhaps ask all services into the house (electricity, gas, cable, etc.) that could possibly be underground to come mark their lines.  (Call 811.)  This can sometimes be used to help determine property lines and is a bit of free evidence you can collect.  Hope you get peace soon.

  • I've seen similar, but not quite the same, discussions here - hoping that someone can point me in the right direction.

    We're looking to do a fully permitted renovation, which will require a survey before we begin. What would happen if we discovered that part of our existing structure (that maybe we're not planning to move, like a retaining wall) is on our neighbor's property? 

    Would we be required to remove that structure? If our current neighbors are OK with the potential overlap, could this cause a problem if they move and a new owner does their own survey?

    Open to having a conversation with an expert here, but I'm not even sure who could answer this sort of what-if scenario. (And grateful for the advice and experiences of the kind folks of BPN!)

    Well, you'd have to discuss it with the neighbor if you wanted to address it at the time of the reno. (You wouldn't have to share the survey with the neighbor automatically.) There are two scenarios, one is you negotiate a price for the land and do a lot line adjustment (record a new property map with the sliver included on it). If the neighbor isn't interested in selling you the property, then yes, I would take it down (and negotiate with the neighbor for an alternate border, like a fence or new retaining wall). Why don't you just start with the survey and find out for sure if it's an issue?

    Please consult a real estate attorney rather than relying on advice posted here, however well intended.  There are many potential issues here and many potential solutions.  That said, the suggestion that you first have the survey done and find out IF you have a problem was a sound one. 
    Norm Vance, retired attorney who cannot offer you legal advice

    If you have an existing retaining wall, fence, shed, or similar structure/fixture that encroaches on your neighbor's property, but you're not planning to touch it as part of your renovation, it's unlikely - but never impossible! - that the city will require you to do anything about it in order to get your permits.  The more usual scenario is that an existing home does not conform to current setback requirements (meaning the exterior walls are too close to the property line) and in most cases, what's already there is allowed to stay the way it is, but any portion where you are adding new construction or making major structural changes will have to be set back by the amount now required.  So for example, if the side of the house is only 2 feet from the property line but the current requirement is 3 feet, and you want to add on to the back of the house, your side wall is going to have a 1-foot "jog" in it so that the side of the extension is 3 feet from the line.  (I ran into this problem on the front of my house, in a porch renovation.)   The best source of information to confirm this is your designer/architect or contractor who has dealt with similar issues in the same city where you are.  Or you can go to your city's building department to see if you can get an inspector there to answer your hypothetical questions.  (The latter is more likely to be possible in a small city than in, say, Oakland or San Francisco.)

    Of course, what your neighbors - or someone who in the future buys your neighbor's house - might do about it, especially if they at some point get their own survey that shows the encroachment, is a different question.  There are all sorts of ways in which your use of the affected part of their property may already be legally allowed (as one example, if this hypothetical retaining wall encroachment has been there for 50 years and the owners of the neighboring house have known about and accepted it for that entire time, you may have a "prescriptive easement" for it), but if you want to avoid the risk of any future fights about it, you could negotiate a formal easement agreement with the current owners.  You would need a real estate lawyer's help with that.  Or you could choose to just let sleeping dogs lie; if you ever sell the house you should disclose the issue to the buyer (and give them a copy of the survey) but if you're fortunate enough to have a good relationship with the neighbors and the structure isn't causing problems for either side, you would probably never need to do anything else about it.

    There are two steps to a lot line or boundary survey. Field location and marking (pins) of corners which provide the ability to string a line between them as may be required by a building inspector, and a drawing and recording of same with the County. The first may not require the second. Boundary surveys have to derive from some previously known monument or other property recorded survey information and it is possible to get different results coming from different directions.

    Understand your terms. Your lot is one thing, your improvements are another. Taken together they are your property.

    Worry about it when a conflict arises. Then get professional advice on applicable laws regarding trespass and encroachment for time limitations. For example a simple search result is this - In California there is a 3-year statute of limitations on causes of actions for trespass. It is well settled California law that a plaintiffs' causes of action for damages and for an injunction to compel removal of the encroaching structures are barred by a statute of limitations.  or this - 

    What is the California boundary law?

    California law recognizes the right of two adjoining landowners to agree on a specific line or marker to act as the property lines between the two parcels, notwithstanding the legal description in each parcel's deed.

    Only specific information will yield proper advice from a surveyor and/or an attorney.

  • Greetings!  We are considering buying an old house in the city of Alameda that will need the brick foundation replaced.  The big issue is that one side of the house abuts a narrow driveway that is shared with the building next door. The next-door building owns the land under the driveway, and the house in question has an easement to use the driveway to reach the back of the property.  Both properties need to use the driveway to access their parking.  We don't know if we would be able to replace a foundation without blocking the driveway.  Has anyone else dealt with a similar problem?  How did you handle it?  Can a foundation be replaced by only accessing 3 sides of a house?  Is it possible to reserve street parking for the neighbors for the duration of the project so they could still have parking?  Thanks!

    When we had our foundation replaced (by Alameda Structural, who did a great job), I believe they were able to do it without blocking the driveway we share with our neighbors, or without even damaging shrubs that abut the foundation.  The process was pretty noisy -- several guys under the house with jackhammers -- which may be a problem for the neighbors.

    However, the work you're doing sounds like it may be within the lot-line set-back, that is, the distance between the property line and where you're actually allowed to build. A lot of old houses are built closer to the property line than would be allowed now, and making changes involves special requirements (Administrative Use Permits), which will add a bit to your costs and inconveniences.  You might want to contact the local permitting folks so you know what's involved.

  • Seeking recommendations and next steps:

    A decrepit old house behind our house is being demoed. I had a very hostile developer come to my house, present a survey, and say that he was replacing our fence but that it's sitting 10 inches on his property line. We bought the house 4 years ago and the fence was already there. There is a shed, raised vegetable garden, and several plants that would be affected. 

    • What are our rights as opposite property owners?
    • How much do surveyors cost for this purpose?
    • His fence only goes halfway through our backyard; it was unclear if was going to replace the entire thing. Does he have to replace the entire fence? 
    • What would you recommend we do?

    Thank you in advance 

    You have no recourse. The neighbor wants their slide of property back. I'm dealing with the same thing except I'm the one who lost 12 inches on a long side of the property. Save your money for the building the new fence needed. One thing you could do that would probably cost nothing is to ask for a copy of the survey and discuss it with a surveyor to ask: how correct should I assume this is? I betcha they will say: this is fairly straightforward process and the fence is in the wrong place. 

    For the following survey I paid $4400 in 2019, below. You'd probably need only items 1a and 1b.  

    Scope of Services: Survey and mapping for new construction.

    1a) Boundary Survey Preliminary research for survey monuments and existing maps of record. Field survey to locate existing survey monuments necessary to establish property lines of subject property.

    1b) Boundary Calculations Office calculations using existing maps, found monuments and field measurements to determine property boundaries of subject parcel. We will also review locations of existing fence lines.

    1c) Topographic survey Locate existing structures, visible utilities, fences/lines of occupation, trees, landscape areas and all hardscape in the area of the existing home including driveway. The adjacent portion of Acroft Court will also be surveyed. Additional ground elevations will be surveyed for the entire property.

    1d) Topographic map Prepare a topographic map showing the above surveyed items overlaid on calculated property boundary. Surveyor will review map following drafting.

    We also had an unpleasant experience with a neighbor about a fence on our property line. Ultimately, the legal property line will be the decider in your case. This is why it is important to have a survey done when one buys a home and to truly understand where fences, landscaping, etc. exceed the property line. Some neighbors don't mind a few inches going to their neighbors, but some do. I've been in my house for 22 years, and have seen fence and/or garden changes made by some neighbors who wanted their true property line confirmed. In your case, I would not leave it up to the survey provided by the other property owner. It is expensive, but you should have your own survey done. (It's been a couple years, so I can't quite remember how much, maybe $2000?) If your survey shows your fence isn't on the true property line, I don't think you have many options.

    Also, I don't think the new property owner has any obligation to do anything about the portion of the fence that does not border his property. So he would only have to build the new fence to connect at the existing fence where his property ends. Of course, this could bring up a can of worms with the other adjacent neighbor who may want to assert their property rights for those 10 inches if that's what the survey says.

    Good luck to you!

    First of all, if he’s offering to pay for the whole thing I’d strongly consider just letting them do it - your half of the cost could be very high (new fence costs usually split between neighbors; since he initiated it, you’ll get the “ugly” side but still have to pay half).  

    About the fence line - the only way to determine where it actually lies is to hire a surveyor to come out and figure it out - they can cost $500 - $600 but it’s the only way to definitely tell. 

    I’m not sure he would have to replace the whole thing if the shared fence only goes partway around your yard, I don’t know this but I’d assume he does not.

    And check out the Nolo Press book on Neighbor Law, they have info on issues between neighbors such as fence disputes etc.

    Good luck!

    Hi, we had a similar issue about 20 years ago when the empty lot behind us was purchased and the new owner wanted to build a house.  The owner said that the chainlink fence that was up was not on the property line and we had some of his property.  The fence was already there when we bought the house, which was built in 1957.  We purchased in 1994. I didn't question him as the fence was positioned in a weird, offset way.  Also, our backyard is huge and I figured there would be less yardwork and weeding for me to do.  We allowed the guy to move the fence at his cost. 

    Fast forward about 15 years later, I decided to get a survey done between my property and "another" nextdoor neighbor as this neighbor kept claiming an oak tree was on our property.  I spoke to the neighbor about getting a survey done as there is no fence between our 2 properties, and it was difficult to tell where I should garden and where I shouldn't. She refused to go in halfway on the survey.  

    The survey cost us about $1500 about 5-6 years ago. And this was only on the east side of our house. I had the surveyor put down 3 markers so if ever wanted to put up a fence a builder would know where the property line was.  The surveyor had the survey registered/filed with Contra Costa County and told me that it is a legal document.  So, from what I can remember, if the neighbor questioned the survey and the marked property line, she would have to do her own survey to contest mine. (BTW, the oak tree is on my neighbor's property.).

    But then, I also discovered that the neighbor that moved the fence on the other side of our property actually took about 2 feet of our property on the NE corner of our backyard.  This came to light from the survey I commissioned.  The surveyor asked me if I had seen the survey of that owner (I did not) and he was wondering if they had markers in the ground which mark the property line.  We couldn't see any looking from my yard.  The surveyor told me these markers are not to be removed and can be a misdemeanor if they are removed intentionally.  

    So, from all I've been through, I would suggest you ask the developer to see their survey and ask if they filed it with the County where your house is located. If it is legal, then you might have to hire your own surveyor to contest the developers.  Also ask to see the surveyor markers in the ground.  And if a fence is up, it doesn't necessarily mean it is on the property line. My surveyor told me if I want to install a fence and the nextdoor neighbor doesn't want to go in on half the cost, he would suggest I put it at least 2" on my side of the property line. 

    As far as the neighbor who has my property, he moved and sold the house. I never told the new neighbors about it.  I guess, if and, when we sell the house we will probably have to disclose this and possibly do another survey. Right now I'm not stressing about it. The area in question is not useable.  It's on a slope and gophers have a field day up there. Less for me to weed anyway. 

    Good luck. Hope my experience helps you. 

    Ugh - I'm so sorry this is happening. If it were me, I would DEFINITELY get a survey done as well on my own. As for cost, we had this done many years ago for around $1500, not sure of the going rate. He only has to replace the portion that is shared (so not the whole fence if only half is his). It's unfortunate he is not willing to be amicable about it Good luck!

    First thing to do, ask for a copy of his survey and check whether his surveyor is a reliable company (online reviews, etc). In reality, there's not much wiggle room in surveys, so if he went with a reliable company, he is pretty much right. If you still have doubts and you don't want to pay for a full survey, you can have a surveyor come over and do a property marking; basically put down little stakes on the property line. This will confirm to you whether the developer is right. This should cost up to a couple of thousand for one line of the property (depending on how big it is, hard to tell without data). If the fence is over the property line, it is his right to remove it. I can't imagine that it matters a whole lot whether the fence was there before you bought the house. He is under no obligation to redo the fence, I'm guessing he's only doing it because it will help him resell. That's my understanding, based on conversations with neighbors. 

    Please consult with a lawyer.  There are many facts that need to be known to give you a complete answer about what your rights are.  This is not one to crowdsource.

    The going rate for surveys is around $5000 and there might be a wait time. If his survey is accurate there isn't much you can do. I would ask for a copy. 

    We had a survey done in 2020 by Moran and it was $4000. It's probably more now. If there is already a survey done by a licensed surveyor I wouldn't pay for another one since it's very unlikely you'll get a different outcome on a second survey.

  • Hi- I'm in Oakland and live next door to an empty lot. I'm interested in buying part of the lot to get more yard space. (I don't think we can afford the full lot.) Does anyone have experience with buying part of a lot? Is it possible to only buy part, and does it need city approval? Or, have you gotten easement rights before- and if so, what happens if they decide to sell the lot, do we lose the easement? Finally, can you recommend any lawyers who can negotiate this (we have the contact information for the lot owners but don't know them. We would have to approach them to buy.) Thanks in advance!

    Hello, generally you cannot buy just a portion of a residential lot because it will make the smaller than the City's regulations allow. So your option here is negotiating an access and no-build easement with the current owners. Easements are binding on subsequent property owners, so assuming it's properly drafted your right to use the easement area would carry over to new owners. Please feel free to DM if you want to discuss further. I'm a real estate lawyer and do easements frequently.

    I can't offer legal advice on a specific lot or transaction, but: In general it is not possible to buy or sell less than a complete lot. And in general an easement "runs with the land," meaning that it lasts even when the land is sold.

    In general, you cannot buy only part of a lot.  You would need to do a "lot split" to divide the empty lot, or "lot line adjustment" to change the boundary between your parcel and the one next to it; either way it's a complicated and expensive land development process, and there are many reasons that the city might not allow it.

    If you are able to reach an agreement about it with the owner of the empty lot, you can buy an easement over just part of their lot.  How likely they are to agree may depend on what plans they have for the property and whether the remaining part of the lot is big enough to build a house on (with required setbacks etc.), as well as how you're planning to use the space.  You would need a lawyer to write and record the easement agreement, and, preferably, a surveyor to create the exact description of where your easement is.  Again this can get expensive, but it's much easier than a lot line adjustment and does not require any city approvals.  A recorded easement remains in place even when the affected properties are sold; it's permanent unless and until both owners agree to change or terminate it.

    You might also create a "license" or "use" agreement for the part of the lot that you'd like to add to your yard.  This is similar to an easement in some ways, and similar to a lease or rental agreement in some ways.  It can include basically whatever arrangements you want about how the property is used and maintained, regular payments (for the property taxes, insurance, etc.), and under what conditions either owner can terminate the agreement.  But unlike an easement, a license agreement does not automatically go with the land; it's a personal agreement between the current owners.  In your situation I would want a lawyer to write the agreement, and have it recorded, but this is probably the easiest thing to negotiate with the other lot's owners.

    I'd approach the lot owners first just to see if they're interested at all, and talk about what kind of payment(s) they would accept, so that you know if there's even a deal to be made, before hiring a lawyer to negotiate and document the details.  Good luck!

    We bought a lot in Oakland 35 years ago and built our house on it. Things have changed a bit in the interim, but I am a licensed Realtor and am somewhat familiar with the process.

    In the past, whether one could subdivide a lot was determined by the areas, in square feet, of adjoining lots.

    Now, with the new city planning atmosphere, driven by urban density fundamentalism and new laws such as SB9 and SB10, state law allows for duplexes and dual houses to be built on lots previously zoned for single-family residences.

    What will most affect your ability to purchase the lot next door might be the goals and intents of the owners of this lot.  I would recommend that you write them a letter and express an interest in their lot, state that you are the next door neighbor, but do not talk price yet or say what you intend to use it for, or talk about buying a fraction of it. First you need to know what the owners are thinking.

    Some owners hang onto a lot as an investment.  In this case, they may be waiting for the market to allow them to hit a specific price point.  Be aware that they probablycan sell the entire lot for a better price than two halves, depending on the location and the lot area.

    There has been some talk about a law that would levy a fine on owners of vacant lots, as a way to encourage more housing construction. I don't know whether this law was passed, but it would bolster your chance of buying the lot if the owners are paying to keep it unbuilt.

    Some owner may aspire to build their own house on the lot.  But over time plans can change. Building a house in Oakland is not for the faint-hearted, primarily because of financing complexities.

    It does not hurt to ask the owner what their plans are for the lot!

    That said, it is incredibly easy to sell a lot - some of the most absurd lots, on cliffs in good neighborhoods, are sold and built-upon. But if you happen to approach the owners at the right moment, you may luck out.

  • Lot-line adjustment appeal

    Oct 13, 2021

    Hello, 

    My neighbor and I have been discussing a lot line adjustment. We have 2 kids and he has none, so we'd like to purchase a portion of his backyard so we have more room for the kids. We are in agreement with the arrangement. However, initial emails to the City of Berkeley said this would not be allowed because both our lots are less than 5000 sq. ft. (his ~4,100sq ft and ours ~2,300sq ft) and the city will not make an already non-conforming lot even smaller, even though this makes the two lots about equal. Apparently, zoning code states all lots must exceed 5000 sq. ft. We live in SW Berkeley where almost none of the lots in our neighborhood are greater than 5000 sq. ft., so this minimum lot size was surprisingly large to me.

    Has anyone had success appealing a lot-line adjustment to the city? Can anyone recommend any land-use lawyers who can help me submit an appeal?

    Thank you!

    Why don't you just negotiate a long-term lease?

    Hi. I'm a city planner and live in Berkeley but haven't dealt with this in Berkeley. Every city is different and I'm not familiar with the appeal process in Berkeley. However, an easier and less expensive option would be to purchase an easement from your neighbor instead of adjusting the lot line. An easement would grant you the rights to use the property. It does not need to be approved by the city but you will need a lawyer to write up the legal document and record it at the County Recorder.

    We were in a similar situation. Best option is to do a permanent easement. It will be on record. Lots of options for terms of easement.

  • We have owned our house in Oakland for about 20 years and before that rented it for 5.  When we rented it it came with the garage which is behind a front property.  The front property was sold without the garage 2x.  Current owners of the front property are going to sell shortly and we found out the garage is listed within the property line of the front property.  We discovered this years ago and the front property owners know about it but never "claimed the garage" . We are concerned that it might come up when they sell and need to know our options to keep the garage and land it is on as ours. 

    Any advice and real estate attorney recommendations?

    I have used Thomas Eastridge. He used to be in Oakland, I think he's moved to El Cerrito. I found him knowledgable and down to earth.

    510-682-7111. info [at] eastridgelaw.com.

    I don’t have a real estate agent recommendation but when it comes to boundary disputes, what you need is to get a land survey done. These surveys are not cheap and it can take a while to get someone out to do the work. So get a surveyor ASAP. 

    Seems like you just need to look on the county assessors map to figure it out, or hire a surveryor to map it out - an attorney isn't really necessary at this point. Good luck!

    You may have what is known as a "prescriptive easement" over the garage, which an attorney can help you evaluate.  If the front property owners are cooperative, there are also several ways of setting up a written agreement giving you the right to continue to use the garage even after they sell.  But you do need professional legal advice based on your particular situation.      

  • Could anyone suggests who would be the best professional to consult regarding the pros and cons of granting an easements, or making boundary adjustments between two adjacent properties in Berkeley? Main concerns are their feasibilities, and their impact on current and future values of both properties. Thanks!

    I would consult with a real estate attorney about this.  Would recommend findlaw.com.

  • Hi all, hoping for some advice from our knowledgeable townspeople. One of our 3 fences (they were all built at different times) recently needed replacing. The neighbor we share that property line with found the contractor and arranged for the work - without mentioning the cost to us. The “ugly side” of the fence faces our yard. In addition, for some reason, their contractor chose to place all of the post holes on our property - not a single one of them was dug into their yard, and it was clearly done intentionally that way. Given these circumstances, what do you think would be a fair split of the cost for the 2 families?  We’ve heard of circumstances where the family with the “pretty side” facing their yard bears a higher share of the cost. How have you done it?  We’re a little thrown by the fact that we’re left with rather gross looking cement-filled holes all along our fence, while the other family has none of these. Should that, along with the “ugly side” that faces us, mean a lesser share of the cost?  Or should a 50/50 split be assumed?  Thanks for any input. 

    Did you agree to pay for part of the cost of the fence before they started work? If they found the contractor, did the work how they wanted to do it, and didn't get your buy-in to pay for a chunk of the cost ahead of time, I wouldn't pay much if anything! 

    We have four fences/neighbors and have now replaced all of them, each with a slightly different payment structure. First, it's worth noting that fence etiquette historically says that the owner of the fence has the ugly side and faces the pretty side to the neighbor. For our first fence, the fence is a good neighbor fence (looks the same/"pretty" from both sides), both we and the neighbor got estimates and agreed upon the style and contractor, and we split the cost evenly. For the second fence, an adjacent condo association chose the contractor, the fence design, and paid for everything. It is not a good neighbor fence and the "pretty side" faces them. We didn't fight it since we didn't have to pay anything for it, and figured that was a reasonable tradeoff. The third fence is a good neighbor fence, but the neighbor wanted slightly higher-end styles, so the neighbor paid for most of the fence. The last fence we built, and although it's a good neighbor fence, we did not ask that neighbor to pay since they didn't see the need to replace the existing fence (which was functional but not attractive, and stuck out once the other three fences had been replaced). Since we paid, we chose the style and contractor. 

    In your situation, I would definitely not expect to pay 50% of the fence given that you had no input on its design or cost and the ugly side faces your yard. I would actually expect the neighbor to pay the entire cost given that they did not consult you at all for cost or design approval and bucked etiquette by facing the nice side towards themselves. A good neighbor fence is not hugely more expensive than a basic fence (having just finished two of them!) and well worth the extra cost for this kind of situation, and it's somewhat egregious that they didn't consider that or ask you. I'd wait until they ask you to pay, and if they do, offer to pay a third or so (or, if you're gutsy, decline all together and simply let them know that had you had an opportunity to provide feedback on the fence and to ensure that the side facing you did not affect the quality of your view, you would happily have paid half--although consider your neighbor relations if you go this route, too). Good luck!

    This sounds like an unfortunate outcome. Differences occur depending on the circumstances, but generally the project and cost is agreed upon among all parties before the work is done. It's unclear why that didn't happen in your case.

    We recently replaced a fence between my property and our neighbor. My next door neighbor rents out their house, so we don't see them often (they used to live there, but haven't for many years). We have a cordial relationship but we're not best friends or anything. In fact, we had a tense relationship before they moved and decided to rent out their house. We mainly did our communications over texting, since they live near Sacramento, although in the beginning we were both present for contractors coming by for bids. We got three quotes, agreed on the style ahead of time, and agreed each party would pay 50%. We chose a "good neighbor" fence, with alternating panels so that there wasn't a "good side." You can Google "good neighbor fence" if you unsure what that looks like. We made an arrangement with the contractor that each party would pay their portion of the cost, so one party didn't have to front for the whole thing. I got the impression that the fencing contractor was accustomed to neighbor negotiations, which seems logical. I am satisfied with the outcome of our project, and I feel part of the reason it went so smoothly was because of the communication and clarity before the project started. Or maybe we just got lucky! 

    I can see how you would be unhappy with the fence situation. Did you participate at all in the process? If not, it's possible the neighbor just went ahead and made choices that benefitted them because they were the ones who did all the work (finding the contractor, picking the design, making appointments, paying for it, etc). As for payment, that's trickier. Generally the assumption is that each party shares equally in the cost, but if you're unhappy with how it looks on your side, you might be able to negotiate a lower share.  I wish there had been clarity about expectations, cost, and style/design decisions, and it sounds like none of that happened for your project. Good fences make good neighbors, and it seems like you all have some conversations to figure out an equitable and satisfactory solution. Good luck! 

    We recently replaced one section of the fence. We picked the builder, chose the type of fence and had the nice side. Because of this we chose not to ask our neighbor to pay at all. I think you should defunitely pay less than half.

    I would not pay anything for that fence. That was a hostile action on their part. Tell them that when it is time to replace the fence again, you will do it to your liking and pay 100%. Neighbors who want to share the cost should negotiate the design so that all parties are reasonably happy with the result. Unless you refused to negotiate. In that case my answer would be different. 

    well that stinks.  i am not giving legal advise here, but rather writing what my understanding is from our fence adventure.  it would be worth speaking directly with a professional on this matter in my opinion.  from what i understand, in california the rule is 50/50 split.  and yes you are correct, the custom is, the person who initiates / installs the fence is supposed to give the pretty side to their neighbor.  (personally we like the ugly side ourselves as it offers more texture and is less 'wall' looking).  another option is to have done an, 'every other panel' facing approach, so every 6-8' or so the pretty side switches sides.  that offers nice texture to both neighbors and is a nice compromise.  regarding the fence post placements... that is a big problem or a blessing.  if the fence is indeed totally on your property, well then hey, its yours to do what you wish to do with it. (WWIII of course, but still.   your property, your fence.  the posts are supposed to be dead on the property line was what the big four fence companies i received estimates from told me.  a possible BIG concern is if they're property is encroaching on your land.  we have a friend who literally lost some feet of his property along a very long fence line somehow, due to incorrect placement and it wasn't good.  even if only inches, make sure this won't be a problem when it comes time to sell and there is a boundary dispute.    and sorry you have such a butthead neighbor;  we have one too and are still scratching our heads over the ridiculousness of their actions/behaviors.  when it comes to money and territory... all rationale goes flying out the window sometimes.  egads...  good luck to you!

    This doesn't sound right---your neighbors should have discussed the price before going ahead with the work if they wanted you to contribute.

    I put up a fence that was very elaborate on my side since it is visible from my window, but my neighbor doesn't face the fence, so his side is just plain planks. I happily paid for 2/3 of it, and my neighbor paid for 1/3. I kept him in the loop through the whole project, as well as encouraging him to meet with the builders.

    The fact that your neighbors didn't OK the price with you first, nor ask about the cement filled holes, leads me to feel they really should pay for the entire fence themselves. If they didn't include you in the project, and you didn't agree before hand on a price, the project lacks a verbal contract. If you don't feel comfortable paying nothing, I would definitely not pay more than 1/3.

    It's not getting just your getting the ugly side of the fence, it's the new posts being put in your yard versus their original position and gross cement job to boot that would disincline me from paying 50/50. Something similar recently happened to me, only a new fence that I had no say in went up and I was not asked to pay. It was a quick and dirty job prior to selling the house next door, and my ugly side has nails protruding my way from every fence board attached. Rather than living with the ugly side and being upset about it forever, I'm putting up my own boards on my side. If you did the same, I would recalculate the total cost to be what the contractor charged your neighbor plus what you spend on your side, split the total cost 50/50 (or a lesser percentage to compensate you for less yard) and deduct what you spent on your half from what you give your neighbor. 

    Honestly, if the fence is over your property line you need to have the line drawn by a surveyor and contest the placement of the fence. If you allow encroachment on your property openly and knowingly for five years, the area becomes the property of the neighbor. A fence that sits on the property line is supposed to be cost-split 50/50, and your neighbor couldn't potentially sue you for that. But honestly, you're going to live with the ugly on your side for 20 years or so now, and it sounds like it's encroaching on your property. I'd consult an attorney and get this fixed to your satisfaction because now the fence is built and you're either stuck with it and pay for it, or you do something about it. It's unlikely your neighbors are going to want to do anything about it at this point. 

    I haven't had a fence put up recently but did have a property line survey done within the past 6 weeks. The surveyor suggested to me, off the record, that if I decide to put a fence up between my and my neighbor's property, and I am going to be paying for the fence, I  should have it built 1-2 inches on my side of the property.  This way the neighbor, if she complains, cannot touch the fence since it's on my property.  I consulted my neighbor about doing a survey and she chose not to contribute to the cost.  She doesn't  not want a fence put up either so I will pay for that too.  Since the posts were placed on your side of the property without your consent, perhaps you have some legal recourse. Also, I've seen some fences in my neighborhood where the pretty and ugly sections of the fences were alternated.  This could have been a solution to your problem if you were consulted first by your neighbor.  From your posting, it sounds like your neighbor did not consult you at all.  I would assume that the neighbor would bear the entire cost of replacing the fence. 

  • This is a little off-topic, but... We're very unfortunately in a boundary dispute with a neighbor. Unfortunate for both sides. Getting a survey is proving difficult  - no one, not even the surveyors, can tell where the lot lines really are around here. Would anyone know a good real estate attorney who is, in particular, experienced at the courtroom part of real estate litigation? I've been checking around, but they seem to be relatively rare bird. Thank you.

    Boundary disputes are woefully common and expensive. Nolo Press has a book, Neighbor Law. Dispute resolution begins and frequently ends with a lot line survey. Facts are facts. You say no surveyors can help? This is hard to understand since every parcel in California has a metes and bounds description in the deed. Perhaps you have a strange situation. There is a good surveyor Andres Deak, Alameda, who charges about $500 per lot line.

    As a general practitioner and estate planner I see hundreds of property deeds all with metes and bounds descriptions. Save your money, do not hire a real estate attorney to settle a boundary dispute. They can cost upwards of $20K if you go to court. 

    Try Katzoff and Riggs in Emeryville. I know they do Real Estate Law as they helped me when I had a real estate problem. They are extremely knowledgeable courtroom lawyers. I know they work with real estate owners, but I am not sure they work with individual homeowners.

Archived Q&A and Reviews


Questions & Advice  

Neighbor's Fence On Our Property in Oakland

April 2013

I am wondering where to go in the Oakland bureaucracy to find out about property lines.

The neighbor in the house directly behind us has been complaining about the condition of the fence between their house and ours, which was built long before we moved in. When I went out to investigate, I noticed that the fence looks like it protrudes about nine inches into our property, giving them an extra nine inches of yard. I'm guessing this because the back of our garage is set back nine inches from the fence.

So I'm asking for four bits of advice:
1. Where can I go/who can help me determine where the actual property line is?
2. How would you present these findings to our neighbors -- who are not very friendly?
3. Several years ago, they planted giant junipers which are now three stories high, right against the fence. If we build the new fence on the correct property line, the trees will be in the way! Suggestions?
4. By the way, my partner, who does construction for a living, has offered his labor to rebuild the fence, if our neighbors provide the materials. The fence is only about 15 feet long. Does that seem fair?

Thank you, wise community! Good fences make good neighbors


Dear Neighbor,

As a local Realtor with many years of experience, I can tell you that property lines are almost never where homeowners think they are. For example, it's just as likely that your own garage is in the ''wrong'' place as it is that the fence is encroaching. Depending on the age of your home (most East Bay homes are approaching 60 to 100 years now) the original layout of the structures on the property may be somewhat approximate, and in addition, if you are not on flat ground, your own land and the structures upon it may have moved considerably since the lot lines were first laid out. I attended one lecture by a soils engineer where aerial photographs from 50+ years ago were overlain with recent ones, showing an astonishing amount of otherwise unnoticed movement. Houses, garages, fences and yards may move many feet, not just inches, over time, and they don't always move at the same rate, so whole neighborhoods get rearranged!

The only way to formally define your property boundary is with a survey. Such a survey would be expensive, and to be accurate you may need to survey not just the fence line but the surrounding points of reference, such as your other property lines and your neighbor's other property lines.

Another suggestion is to obtain a plat map for your property and your neighbor's property. You may be able to find one on your own by researching the public records, or ask a Realtor. The plat map will show, for example, how your lot is aligned with surrounding lots, so by using other points of reference (like other existing fence lines) you can extrapolate how yours should line up. It will also show the total dimensions of your lot, so you might be able to measure and see if you come up 9 inches short.

If your lot is large enough that the 9 inches is not very important, I encourage you to weigh the value of those inches against the value of good relations with your neighbors. There are few things that ding the market value of a property like a property line feud. And if you do obtain a formal survey, you may not like what you find. I think that for you to provide labor, while the neighbor pays for materials, to replace the fence in its current location, is a very fair solution.

Holly


The only really accurate way to know the exact location of your property line is to hire a registered surveyor. Perhaps this could be affordable for just one line. Have her/him set flags and take photos of the flags and their relationship to fixed objects.

Depending on where the legal line turns out to be, you will know who is responsible for the trees. See the Nolo Press book on neighbor law.

You can go to the Oakland building dept at Frank Ogawa Plaza, just north of City Hall to get their opinion. Bring a good book to read while you wait. Go to the Information Desk & they will give you a number to be called to speak to someone from the proper department, probably planning.

Keep a logbook of all your research on this issue. Take photos of the fence & trees and make prints.

When you approach the neighbors, say ''we are concerned about the fence...'' And show them your documents. Don't say a word about legal action; the will infer that you have the ability to make a case should you wish to do so. Ask them exactly what they think should be done to solve the problem. Give them your ''call to action'' so they will know exactly what they need to do to appease you. Then make your very fair offer of doing the labor if they provide materials. Be sure you agree on what materisls to use. You can quantufy the labor value by taking bids on the job. There are many, many fences that do not sit on the real property lines! Amelia


Unfortunately you have to get it looked at by a surveyor company. It's very expensive. We did when they were moving and we needed to know where the property line really lay, and it cost $700! That was reduced from $1200 if we wanted it ''staked out.'' We just got it drawn on a piece of paper.

Good luck. homeowner with fence problems


The only way to really know the location of your property line is to have it surveyed by a licensed engineer -- which can be expensive. The real question is, what difference does it make? Assuming you are agreeable to the idea of rebuilding the fence and in some way splitting the cost with your neighbors, and assuming that neither you nor the neighbors actually know where the property line is, the exact location of the new fence is just another point to be negotiated and agreed on.

The back of your garage is not a reliable guide to the location of your property line (the garage may or may not have been constructed with whatever the legal setback was at the time it was built, and it may or may not have been altered since then) and you may not even want to claim those extra 9 inches if it means you end up with lack of access to the back of your garage AND maintenance responsibilities for those large trees. Do you want to fight about it? Or do you just want to make a deal with these people and have a new fence? I work for a law firm that has handled fights over this sort of thing, and I promise you, nine inches of back yard, to which you've never had or needed access before, is just not worth the headache and the legal fees.

They buy materials, you supply the labor seems fair enough to me, but before you propose that, I'd suggest getting your contractor partner to estimate the total cost of the materials, and also estimate what the work would cost if he were to do it as normal contract. You'll all have a better idea what you're getting into. Whatever you ultimately agree on, write down the key points and sign it. It doesn't have to be terribly formal, but having this kind of written agreement helps avoid later disputes over cost, material type or quantity, when the work was supposed to be done, and so on. Only the tree cases are worse than the fence cases...


While some cities may participate in private disputes, it is more cost effective of your time to hire a professional surveyor to mark the property boundary. A one-line survey will cost you about $500, and is well worth the cost to settle this issue once and for all.

When you know the actual boundary you can determine if there is encroachment by fences, building or trees and what you want to do about it. Good luck Lynn


You need to hire a surveyor. The city won't help or get involved. You are wise to deal with this problem now before anyone sells the property. If you don't it could interfere with the sale of the property or lead to a lawsuit. ANON


Neighbors fence on our property

March 2012

Hi. We are in contract to buy a house, and from comparing the map that came with the preliminary title to the fences, we think that the fence is 5 feet away from the property line, in (assuming the sale proceeds) our small yard. We would definitely get the property line surveyed. If the surveyor indicates that the fence is not in the correct place, we would approach our new neighbors and explain the situation. Has anyone done this and have the neighbors claim imminent domain? If so, what was the outcome? These homes were built in the late 60's and the fence looks *old* so it could have been there for 20+ years. Thx!


I think you mean adverse possession, not eminent domain. I don't know how this works with fence lines, but in addition to having the fence, your neighbors would have had to be paying taxes on that strip of land for several years. It seems unlikely they have been doing that. Even if they have no legal rights in the land, it seems like a rough way to start off owning a new home. Maybe it is something you should ask the current owners to deal with before you close, rather than having to start off with your relationship with your neighbors this way. good luck


We discovered years after living in our house that a piece of our neighbors fence is on our property. About 3'square. The neighbor planted a fruit tree in that corner and we both enjoy the yearly crop of yummy fruit.

Since you are the newbie (possibly),I'd be really careful about neighbor relationships. If you do get this place and want the neighbor to move the fence, you must approach it really carefully, and also offer to pay for the removal of the fence and at least share the cost of a new fence. Often fences were put up when the properties were originally divided, then the property lines were changed.

In our neighborhood, there was a swath of land tha was PG access that ran through the middle of the blocks. These eventually became part of the properties but were never properly surveyed.

Put yourself in that neighbors shoes....how would you feel if someone moved in and came over and said ''By the way...'' good neighbor


I had a similar issues. When buying my home I noted the deed/plot plan showed a small section of vacant land behind my garage next to a newer home with a sidewalk. I never questioned the neighbor's sidewalk until fire burned down both homes. A survey was done which revealed the remaining unburned sidewalk was 1/2 on my land lengthwise so they were taking 18''x 25' of my property. Like you I felt the best solution was to kindly approach the neighbors and ask/suggest that it was in both our interests to abide by the survey for clear title so the sidewalk needed to go and I offered to pay for the removal. To my shock they got a lawyer and tried to claim imminent domain rights as the sidewalk had been there for years without challenge and they intended to keep it (to maximize their lot size). The law actually marks the start period (10 yrs?)for imminent domain from time of discovery of encroachment so the clock starts to run once you discover the encroachment. In your case the neighbor could claim the previous owner of your home had knowingly allowed the fence to encroach for over 10 years and that would be a problem for you. Since my neighbors were never good neighbors anyway a brilliant friend suggested that 1/2 sidewalk should just ''disappear'' some night when they weren't around. So I borrowed a backhoe and carefully cut the sidewalk in half lengthwise along the line and removed the section on my land to the property line leaving them a narrow sidewalk (not to code to reuse) forcing them to remove their 1/2 at their expense. I would have loved to have seen the faces of them and the lawyer the next day-it just disappeared. They then couldn't rebuild it over the line, we both stayed on our sides, and they are still lousy neighbors. I did them a favor as titles are now clear! I would think a fence even on the property line in the 5 foot required setback might require a permit so you could check if any are on record. If making friends with the new neighbors isn't a priority I might just get a survey done and pull the fence down as if I thought it were mine. You could also try to salvage it and move it over to their side (with permits if needed)to try to mediate the situation and keep neighbors friendly. What you don't want is your lot size reduced and future resale value lessened by a lousy neighbor who encroached-perhaps even intentionally. If you know about it and let it slide 10 years the land goes to the neighbor. Now is your best shot to clear it up if possible. You just can't come out smelling like a rose on these issues as everybody wants what is in their best interest it seems. Hope this helps provide some perspective and remedy. been there too


A neighbor once informed me they wanted to build a fence along our side property line as they were getting a dog. He asked if I wanted to pay 1/2 for the fence and we could ''put it right on the line''. I said no thanks because I didn't want a fence or a dog and preferred the green bamboo hedge we already shared ''on the line''. He said he was going to do it anyway so I asked that he be sure to get a small and quiet dog and keep the fence ON HIS SIDE of the property line. (I had to dig up the bamboo and move it to the front line at my expense or he was going to remove it for the fence). That put him on notice to stay on his side and typically fences should be a few inches on your own side not on the line. He complied carefully (except for the giant noisy dog that nobody cleaned up after) but never painted or maintained my side of the fence so I now have to do it. He and the dog moved away soon thereafter and I am sure glad I held ''my ground'' on that whole deal! Maybe if I had shared the cost he would have got a smaller dog and not have moved away??? While he stayed we remained good neighbors despite the rift over the fence. Dog Gone


I don't know about ''imminent'' domain (I think you mean ''eminent'' anyway). This is the power of a government to purchase property for a public good (try a google search before posting!. However, there is a legal doctrine wherein property that has been used by someone else for a certian period of time can be deeded to that person due to the longstanding use. I don't know the name of that but if I were you I would consult a real estate attorney to look into the specifics of your case, and you should be questioning the real estate agent and/or the owner of the property specifically to ask them about this. And if it matters, bring it up in closing. You could definitely lose that property on the other side of the fence (if it's not already gone).


Neighbor put his Utility Lines in Our Backyard

Sept 2011

We live in Berkeley hills. Our downhill neighbors had a survey done for a remodel few years ago which shows that we -uphill neighbors- are a foot into their property, and they are a foot into their downhill neighbor's property. The survey is limited to their property only, but it seems like if we are to adjust the property lines by that survey, it would affect the entire block or hill. Two days ago we came home to see that there is a water line that enters our property from his side, goes 15 ft on the ground along the wall and goes back into his backyard. When we asked him what that line is about, and how it was planted there without our knowledge, he blatantly said he didn't want to run it on his side because it is concrete there and the line doesn't look good on the concrete. When we asked why we should see his water line that he doesn't want to see on his side, he said that's his part of the property anyways (even though the line is on our side of the fence). To the bigger problem of having someone in our backyard without our consent to run the line, he apologized and said that he told the contractor to ask us before going in -apparently we were not home when the line was installed. Our biggest problem with this guy is that he thinks he is entitled to everything. We had many other problems with him in the past, so have the other neighbors of him. Some recent examples: he decided to build a 10 ft high trellis adjacent to our fence, without asking our opinion or showing any drawings of it to us. Or, he took down the entire fence along the line with one of his other neighbor, let that fence un-built for three days where the deer had ample time to eat all the flowers and veggies in that neighbor's garden, and all that without even contacting that neighbor regarding his fence project. Whenever something comes up, we talk to him, write to him, and then he apologizes. And now this waterline: first, his contractor enters our property without our knowledge, which makes me feel very insecure in my house. Even though now we told him not to enter our backyard without our knowledge, we don't know what he will come up with next time. How can we ensure our privacy? Second, how should we address the property line issue? We sure don't want to accommodate his utility lines on our side of the fence. If we are to adjust the fence location, we will lose some part of our land on his side, which we can claim from our uphill neighbor, but that would have a domino-effect in the entire block where everybody should move 1 foot uphill. Apologies for the long entry, but we are fed up with this guy and really in need of some good advice to handle him. Thank you BPN! Longing for a good neighbor


It's time for a complaint call to the city. It sounds like your neighbor is doing most of the work without permits. Since you have tried to be nice and discuss the problems with him to no avail, get the city involved for the illegal work he is doing. anon


Neighbor disputes are depressingly common, but this neighbor is the limit. This is not a criminal matter, and the police will not get involved. Neither will the city. Your recourse is private civil action.

This neighbor is either encroaching or tresspassing on your property, depending upon the nature of the water lines (e.g. drip irrigation v intake plumbing or drainage). Tresspass does not merely mean foot traffic.

Despite the location of the surveyed boundary, there are several doctrines of property law which can overcome them. Some of them have strict time limitations, so you should act at once.

You stated there is a fence. Depending upon the length of time the fence has been there, and even who built it, there is an argument that the fence is the boundary. Lynn


TIC property line dispute

Aug 2010

We currently rent a house that is one half of a TIC. It is our understanding that the TIC agreement (which we haven't seen) states that each of the two houses share the driveway and garage equally. There are four owners in total, two that own the house we rent, and two that own the house next door. As of this week it appears that the owner next door (who also resides there) has hired a friend to construct a music practice room for a piano in the garage. We (the renters on this half of the TIC) were not asked nor informed of the construction project; not by the neighbors, nor by our own LLs. The project is dominating daytime use of the driveway, the sheetrock and lumber is blocking access to our half of the garage, the construction noise is violating our city?s noise ordinance restrictions, and finally there is no building permit listed at our local housing office. We tried asking the worker about what she was doing, and the first time she lied to us. The second time we asked she admitted it was a music room, but that it won?t be soundproofed. We wrote an email to all four owners of the TIC complaining about the various inconveniences and asking for our clear access back, but only our neighbor has replied and that was to only state that they will clean up after themselves when they are done. No word from our LLs at all. Outside of reporting them to the city, do we have any recourse? I feel like my LLs are violating our rights as a tenants, but we are not clear on how. Can anyone give advice to us about this? frustrated tenant


imho, you should contact the city and report that construction is being performed without a permit. a permit is pulled so that, in the end people dont get hurt because if it isnt legal it means it was never inspected for safety or structural issues - even if the construction is done by licensed contractors, it doesnt mean that what they are doing is up to code. having a permit also states legal hours to do the work. you can report such activities anonymously. if reported, a stop order is issued and the contractor is fined and can not perform any work until a permit is pulled. though now you are in a situation where the culprits know you dont agree with whats going on there (and so anonymous, not so much). if you have not been able to get a response from your landlords in regards to this - then maybe they don't care too much about it since it is not them being (generally) affected by it. have you talked to your other neighbors in the neighborhood? has this bothered any of them? they too can report it. Good luck! anon


You can call the police about noise. Call the planning department about permit violations. And check your lease for contractual information about driveway access. I think it would be easier to move. anon


Perhaps the East Bay Community Law Center can help. (2921 Adeline Street, Berkeley, CA 94703) 510-548-4040 They help mediate disputes, and don't cost an arm & a leg. . Andus H Brandt, RA


You need to look at your lease. That is what governs your relationship with your LL. Specifically, did they rent you a portion of the garage and driveway access? The TIC agreement should also govern the relationship between the two owners, and typically they say that tenants have to abide by the obligations of the owners. The agreement may require you to reasonably accommodate the neighbor's construction project. It also may require that they obtain permits for any work they do. Check out the lease/rental agreement and the TIC agreement, if there is one. anon


Driveway/Fence dispute with Neighbor

August 2008

I recently purchased a home with a driveway that is between my home and my neighbors home. My neighbor has his own driveway on the opposite side of his house, but my driveway uses part of his land to access my garage. I have been told this is called an eavesment, which allows me access to his land in order to use my driveway. However there were problems previously with the old owners of my home, and my neighbor has placed a fence directly on the property line. I would have no problem with this normally except now the fence has made the driveway too narrow and completely inaccessible to cars. I can drive up the driveway but the width is so small now that once up the driveway I cannot open my door to get out. I talked to my neighbor and he refuses to work something out and is not willing to take down the fence. Something about this seems terribly wrong (possibly illegal) and I am wondering if I should seek legal advice? If so who or how? Is this something I can take up with the city or county? Is a high priced real estate lawyer necessary? Has anyone experienced something similar? Thanks!


Hi. As a Berkeley architect I deal with this issue on an annoyingly regular basis. Several additional questions for you. 1) Does your Title stipulate that you have a legal easement? 2) How tall is the fence? 3) Did your neighbor get a survey done prior to building the fence? The first thing you (or a high priced lawyer), will need to know is if you have a legal easement. If your Title has a legal easement, then the dimensions of the easement is where your neighbor can build a fence. Provided that you are still allowed access to your property. The City of Berkeley Traffic Engineers will not allow a fence to reduce a driveway to less than 8'-0''. Although they will more than likely require you to use up all other means prior to doing anything about it. If the neighbor did not get a survey chances are that at least part of it is not really on the property line. However, this will require you to get a survey to prove it. Other options are lengthy to explain. Feel free to contact me if you have any more questions. Shawn


OUCH ! Both Realtors (individually and as corporation/s) and the previous owner/s (individually and as a maried couple) were obligated by California law and federal banking statute to tell you BEFORE YOU PURCHASED your new home if there were ANY ''ISSUES''! If you had not been informed in writing and/or if you had not signed a form stating that you clearly had been told about these problems between the previous owner and the next-door resident/s, you should promptly write to these negligent agents, certified USPS, demanding they ''fix'' any and all problems that were not disclosed - - - and call John Gutierrez, Esq: 510.644.1904. Retired Realtor


I would recommend trying to mediate with your neighbor. Although there may be legal avenues you could persue, as you mention, they are likely to be very time consuming and expensive. It's worth trying to get some professional help to work with him/her directly before going in that direction. There is a non-profit, community-based mediation program in the East Bay that specializes in this type of neighborhood dispute. It's called SEEDS (formerly East Bay Community Mediation). You can find them at http://www.ebcm.org/services/mediation.htm Jennifer


Neighbor claims our side of the fence is their property

August 2008

We bought our first house 5 months back in Montclair. Our immediate neighbor claims that a strip of land in our backyard is part of their property. The part of land in question is about one feet wide and runs along their fence until it ends in the back. The funny thing is that they built a fence and left a piece of *their* land on our side of the fence. We have a survey from our previous owners. The survey has a map with measurements, but we do not know how to read the survey. The backyard is kind of an open lot with trees. Up till the house structure we can measure the side yard with their fence and see that the fence is on the correct property line. Immediately after the house ends how can we measure the land with their fence? There is a pole with a white cloth at the far end of their property, but there is no mention of this in our survey. We want to put a fence (our fence) on the correct line believing that there is a strip of land belonging to the neighbors. Can someone please advice us whom to contact? Can a fence contractor read the survey? Another survey would be expensive for us. Thank You. anon


A fence contractor probably would not be the best person to correctly interpret your survey. I could do this and with your assistance probably determine the location of your property corners (within an inch or so) based on your survey.

This can be a complicated problem depending on what information you have....or it could be relatively straightforward. I'd say it shouldn't take but a couple of hours to discuss this with you, examine your documents and do some field measurements.

A property resurvey would set you back about $5000. (I don't do these) I am a Landscape Architect, but know a lot about civil/ engineering survey work. Ray


Be careful about the fence situation. If the neighbor ''owns'' a piece of your land, the people you bought the house from should have told you this. I would ask your real estate agent to consult the other real estate agent and see if the former owners ''forgot'' to disclose this to you. If they did not disclose properly then maybe they should have to pay for a surveyor to come out. I am curious why the former owners had a survey done in the first place.

Ask your real estate agent about the laws about how people can take over other people's property in a hostile and nonhostile manner. The title report should accurately define the borders of your property. Nolo Press probably has a book about this or you could google the topic on-line. judy


You have the legal description of your parcel, the drawing of this description. You need a licensed surveyor. When a parcel is originally surveyed, and its drawing made, stakes are put into the ground along the border of the parcel. They are imprinted with the surveyor's name, legal testimony that the stakes represent the true boundary. Another surveyor uses the drawing to do his own survey. Your neighbors may have a surveyor. Some surveyors take bribes. If your situation is contentious, knowing some facts about surveys, and having a good surveyor, may help you avoid expensive litigation. I had ''neighbors from hell''. They were an Assembly of God Church (Sarah Palin's denomination) that claimed part of our property as being part of their parking lot. We had some experience with them already, none of it good. So we hired a retired surveyor who had been head of the department that does surveys for a city near us. He told us that a parcel description always reads from ''the point of beginning''. This means the surveyor must locate your boundary by measuring from this point all the way around the parcel.

The surveyor they had hired was about to put a new set of stakes into the ground at their preferred boundary. The boundary they wanted worked when the parcel description was read backwards, because the parcel is not flat. When he realized that my husband knew about how to survey, he folded up his equipment and walked away. If his stakes had gone in, it would have cost us tens of thousands of dollars in litigation to get them out and get our land back. Our surveyor did the true survey and recorded it with the county, and we put up a sturdy fence. Most disputes aren't this bad, but land is expensive, and there are many people who covet their neighbor's land. It is well worth protecting yours. Relieved


Neighbor agreed to share cost of fence, now refuses to pay

Nov 2004

About a year ago, an elderly neighbor died. A few months ago, her son (over getting the house ready for sale) agreed to pay for 1/2 of a new fence, providing that he only pay for the backyard portion (we are extending the fence to the front of the houses). I mentioned that a contractor friend would be helping us, and would charge for his time, but that my husband would do the majority of the work at no cost to him (which he did). When we got to his gate, and asked about preferences, he insisted that we pay for half of HIS gate, which I thought was unreasonable, but went along with it. He was very happy with the result. When we gave him the bill ($500), he became difficult, saying that he shouldn't have to pay for either our friend's time, the cost of having the materials delivered, or the rental post hole digger (his portion of the latter 2 was $30!). Mind you, he witnessed the fence being built, so he saw that we had help and that we used the rental item. He demanded receipts, so we politely put them together, cross-referenced with the bill. Even without the charges he objected to, the materials still came to almost $400 of the $500 bill. Another month has gone by, and still no reply. I am temped to write the entire episode off, but on the other hand, I don't want to be taken advantage of. We are not made of money, and it will clearly improve the value of the house he is about to sell. If he doesn't ever pay us, do we have any recourse? Could we put a lien on the house? Should I just move on? anon


You should go to small claims court. Get the Nolo Press guide to small claims. Anon


You may be able to file a preliminary notice and then a Mechanic's Lien on your neighbor's property. Here's a link with some information. http://www.mechlien.com/ See if it applies to you. Good luck. Gizella


Dispute w/neighbor over property lines

March 2003

Hello, I am having (unfortunately!) a dispute with my neighbor regarding property lines. She insists on planting trees and plants without consulting me on our shared strip of land between her driveway and my sidewalk. I checked with the county, and there is no survey on file for my property. Is there a way to resolve this without the expense of a survey? (suggestions welcome!-although I have tried twice to speak with her about this, so that doesn't seem to work... she believes she has been here 20 years, and I don't have any real rights since I've only been here 3 years..) Assuming I must resort to a survey of the property, does anyone have a recommendation on land surveyors? Note to Moderator: I did check the archives, to no avail... thanks! anonymous and frustrated in Oakland


We recommend Moran Engineering on Shattuck in Berkeley. They have quite a few Land Surveyors and Land Surveying services to offer. We employed them (namely, Jeffery Black, LS) in early 2000 and they were extremeley easy to work with and kept to their initial quote. We were given drawings, new property markers, and a summary of the work. They can be reached at www.moraneng.com and (510) 848-1930 & (925) 254-5464 Lynn


I would like to recommend surveyor Jeffrey Black of Moran Engineering 510-848-1930. Jeffrey has lots of experience with boundary disputes. There is no charge for initial conversation. Ruth


I've used Moran Engineering several times for my clients and received great service at fair prices. Theymre at 848-1930. cfl


I could have written your letter, as our neighbor has done the same thing. We are at a bit of a stalemate at the moment, as we have shown him our survey and he doesn't seem to care. As he is a lawyer, we have to decide how much we want to pursue this. For the moment, we have sent him a letter drafted by our lawyer giving him ''permission'' to use our land for the time being. We did use a surveyor, and I can recommend Chris Bailey of Bates and Bailey in Berkeley. Their number is 510.843.2007. You might ask if he can only survey the property line you share with the aggravating neighbor, rather than the whole property, to save on the cost. Claire


Can we expect neighbor to pitch in on fence?

Nov 2002

We are having a contractor rebuild the fence around our yard in a couple of weeks. Can we expect our neighbors to contribute some if we share the fence? Anyone have experience with this to share? Thanks! - Madeleine


A year after we moved in, we approached our neighbor about replacing a shared fence. We offered to purchase the redwood panels and hire/supervise the workers. We estimated the cost of the job and asked if he would be willing to pay part of the cost. He was thrilled to have us take care of all the details and agreed to pay 1/2.

On the flip side, a different neighbor approached us with a bid from a contractor to fix a retaining wall and build a new fence from scratch. We thought the bid was very high and encouraged her to get some others.

She got a few other bids but really wanted a first class job and we could only pay for a budget one, so we offered to pay 1/3 of the cost and she seemed fine with that. -Sharon