Living in San Francisco vs. the East Bay
Parent Q&A
Archived Q&A and Reviews
Living in Rockridge vs. San Francisco
Dec 2007
Of COURSE your situation is different than mine. BUT - your opinions: raising a family in the East Bay vs. San Francisco. Other things to consider: husband works in Cupertino, wife works in San Francisco, goes to school in Berkeley. Baby goes to day care in Berkeley. Surprisingly, the baby LOVES the commute. Time on the train and two twenty minute stroller rides a day - does it get any better? We don't own, are a one car family and would like to stay that way. We LOVE SF, have been there for 12+years. Probably wouldn't be able to afford private school, unless it's Catholic... (not sure how I feel about that, but that's another post). We're planning on having number two in about a year... What's your story? janine
We made the move from SF to Rockridge 2 years ago. We LOVE the neighborhood but miss the city. It is so much easier getting around out in Rockridge and is more kid friendly than the city. It's also a lot more fun and lively than through the tunnel. That being said, the jr. high and highschools need a lot of work (there are some great elementary schools). Hopefully by the time your kids are in jr high, the schools will be as good as the elementaries but, in case they are not, you may still have to pay for private schools out here. Hope that helps -- Anonymous
That was a very confusing question. When do you work in the city and when do you go to school in Berkeley? Do you take your child to Berkeley when you are working in the city? Are you going to be done with school? Where do you live in the city? You don't even mention where you live in the city or how much you are paying in rent. If you can pay the rent in Rockridge I guess it would be good to rent so close to Chabot School or whatever other good school there is that you would be virtually sure of getting in. Or even rent just over the line in Berkeley (Elmwood) for Berkeley schools. Do you have a yard in the city? I think that is nice to have (or be near a nice park) when the babies aren't so babyish anymore. anon
Moving from Berkeley to SF?
Nov 2007
Hi, I was hoping to get some perspective on this. My husband and I are seriously considering moving back to San Francisco from Berkeley. We have 2 children - 3 and 1. We currently own a 3 bedroom in N. Berkeley, and we could probably afford to buy a smaller 3 bedroom in an area in S.F. like Sunnyside (definitely can't afford more expensive areas like Noe Valley or Bernal Heights).
My question is: Is this idea feasible? I know very few people move from the 'burbs back to the city, and I believe I understand the reasons why (better schools in the suburbs, safer, more parking, just 'easier', etc).
However, my husband and I are city people. We lived in San Francisco for years before we had kids and loved pretty much every minute of it. When I got pregnant, though, we thought it made sense for us to move out to the East Bay.
And we do like it here. We like how walkable our neighborhood is. We like the beauty of the area. And we like that we're close to so many great parks for the kids.
However, we don't love it. We both miss SF, and while we make an effort to get out there every couple of weeks for date night, traffic is almost always a nightmare. And, of course, it's not the same as actually living there.
Also, my husband works in S.F., and by the time he walks to BART, takes BART, and walks home, at least an hour's gone by (sometimes 1-1/2 hrs). It's a longish commute for him.
So. I'm specifically hoping to hear from people like us, people who really love city life in general and S.F. in particular. Are you living in the City with kids and making it work? Or did you try it for awhile but felt you needed to move out to the East Bay, and are really glad you did? Any input would be greatly appreciated.
Thanks in advance. Anon
I thought I'd offer some advice on your decision to move back to SF. We live in SF with two kids and are also city people (after over 10 years in Paris and London, we find SF to be small and not very urban!). It IS totally doable, but there are caveats.
First, the schools are misunderstood. The good SF schools actually score better than their Berkeley counterparts and are excellent. The problem is getting in, as the lottery is tough to crack. That said, we got our first choice K-5 school, and if you educate yourself about the process, it is surmountable. Many people are very happy with their K-5 elementary school assignments and those very lucky ones that get a K-8 school like Lilienthal, Rooftop or Lawton are ecstatic. If you don't get a K-8, you're back to the lottery for middle school and it's tougher. There are a couple of high-scoring middle schools, but they are very large (1400 kids). And if your kids are more than two years apart in school, you'll have to play the lottery separately for each one in middle school with no sibling priority. And then high school things really go down hill, with only Lowell and SOTA (both of which accept kids based on academic achievement) being very good, and the others are not great and huge.
The housing situation is tougher. Living somewhere like Sunnyside is a bit like living in the suburbs anyway, so you'd have to decide whether the negotiating/strategizing the school situation would be worth it. Many people do private school all along thinking they are going to have to do it anyway in middle school, and it is tough to get into a K-8 private school in 6th grade. Private high school is the norm, and you're looking at $20K a year right now for St. Ignatius, Urban or Drew, so likely $30K per kid a year in 12 years. That's the math and that's why we're thinking of leaving for Albany! We just don't want to live in Sunnyside or the Outer Sunset and have to plan on $30K a year for each kid in high school, as financially it would be tough for us. The last thing to consider is the sense of community and having your kids have school friends who live nearby. We've never had that small-town community feel, so I don't know if it exists in Berkeley, but here in SF it's not really like that. Most parents work full time and you have to plan play dates on the weekends. And many kids do not go to their neighborhood schools, due to the lottery system. (Though you will probably get Sunnyside school, which isn't bad, if you want it!) Anyway, I probably know way too much about the lottery and schools after going through it last year (and we ended up at private school despite ''winning the lottery''), so feel free to email me if you want more info. Good luck! SF Mom
When we moved to a nice neighborhood in Oakland with a new baby after living in S.F. for several years, we would go back to the city and I would feel like I was running into an ex-boyfriend I was still in love with. I, too, am a city person and I pined for S.F. I'm sure you will get responses reminding you of the finer points of Berkeley but I am sorry, moving back to S.F. was the best thing for us. I love the bustle and vitality of S.F. Yes, you do get less house for your money but utility bills are lower and you have an excuse not to accummulate quite so much clutter.
East Bay people can be very snotty and misinformed about S.F.'s public schools. I'd say the good schools far outnumber the bad schools. Try the Sunset and the Richmond districts for good API scores, dedicated and kind teachers, busy PTAs AND -- contrary to popular belief -- kids that virtually all live within two miles from the school. Good luck! Anon
We've been city people all our lives, born and raised, and we fully intended to raise Totally Urban Children -- but here we are in Berkeley! This was mostly my husband's idea, so I try not to go all ''Green Acres'' on him about it when I'm pining for the city. (''Darling I love you but give me Valencia Street!'')
What we miss: the ease of doing things in the city (we felt like it was okay to leave because we were going out less anyway post-parenthood, but now we REALLY go out less!); the vibrancy of the city itself (I miss street/youth culture -- it's very different in Berkeley); and stupid as it sounds, I think we both miss thinking of ourselves as city people, as hip urbanites, as San Franciscans. We've never entirely felt like we fit in out here, and there's always that sigh of relief when we're in the city, the ''Aaah'' that washes over us when we go back across the bridge.
That said, none of those things really exist in the areas we could have afforded in the city anyway. We have friends who live way out in the Sunset and they complain about all the same things we do and more! It actually takes them *longer* sometimes to get to the same SF destination as for us coming across the bridge. Parts of SF are more isolating, less vibrant and just generally more snooze-worthy than anything we're dealing with over here.
And then there's the pluses -- our kid loves it here; we walk to school; all his friends are walking distance (our friends in the city have a devil of a time scheduling playdates 'cause the lottery system scatters children all over the city without regard to community/neighbor building); we have waaaay more space than we ever could in the city, including a glorious deck and garden that is the envy of all our city friends. Do we miss the city? Absolutely. Are we moving back? Not yet. Maybe when we have an empty nest, but for now this seems to be working. We're happiest when we remember how easy it can be to get into the city, take advantage of that, and also appreciate what we've got out here. Ultimately we're glad we moved.
That said, most of our friends who stayed are equally happy -- everyone is making it work, even some of the folks who didn't get the school they thought they wanted in the lottery (turns out the schools they got weren't so bad after all). The few who really got pissed about their school assignments and failed at appeals left -- and they seemed to get so mad they left the Bay Area entirely!
Thoughts: What if you made date night *not* a high traffic night? Could you go out on a weeknight? We've gone to art openings in SF on a Thursday night and it's taken us 23 minutes to zoom into town, door to door, to the Mission! Trying to get in when everyone else is doing the same thing is a recipe for disaster until they figure out how to ease congestion at the toll plaza. Not much to suggest re: the commute time. Basically commuting sucks -- but at least with BART you can do other things, like read, write, snooze, listen to podcasts.
Good luck with whatever you choose, we sympathize!
Displaced Urbanites
Thinking of moving back to SF with 2 small children
Nov 1999
It may seem counter-intuitive, but my husband & I are thinking of moving back to SF with our two small children (2+ years, & 4 months). I realize it's more expensive, but presuming we can jump that hurdle does anybody have advice on the benefits? We both love urban living and lived in SF before the babies, but aren't current on family-specific issues such as schools, neighborhoods, and other conveniences/inconveniences we may encounter. Any city dwellers out there?
We have raised our two children, now 12 and 8, in SF. I find it to be an invigorating environment in which to raise a family. The range of urban activities and diversity of people and lifestyles has been a positive experience for our family. The schools are a challenge to navigate and research, but there are many good alternatives both public and private. I found the need to re-frame how I think about community. Regardless of the neighborhood in which you live, the children living near you will likely be attending several different schools across the city - and that goes for public or private. So they will have friends near and far. At the same time, you will connect with other families with children on your block or at a local playground recreation center, or church. Strong connections with other parents will make a big difference. There is so much negative press about SF. Yes it has problems, but the city, because it is SF, is living under constant scrutiny from within and without with the media continually focusing on what's wrong. It offers much, presents unique challenges and contains many hidden treasures.
I live in SF and commute to UC Berkeley. You don't say whether or not you're commuting- that has its own hassles, and you can write me to hear more on that subject if it applies.
I haven't raised kids in the east bay so can't directly compare but I can tell you a little about raising kids in SF. The neighborhoods vary, of course, in terms of access to parks, library branches, and schools - i imagine you already know to check this out before you move. There are very neighborhood-y neighborhoods that aren't so extremely urban (you don't say where in the east bay you live--urban or suburban. There aren't a lot of suburban open-space type neighborhoods in SF)
You want to think about schools - SF Unified is changing how it assigns students to schools, but you don't have to go to your neighborhood school. You can request schools, but of course everyone is trying to get into the same 6 top alternative schools so you can't count on getting in. There are OVER 70 elementary schools in SF, which is both good and bad--an overwhelming choice, a complicated and changing lottery system, and of course not all the schools are equal. On the other hand, there's a tremendous variety--immersion programs in spanish, chinese, japanese, korean; schools that focus on arts, sciences, community service, etc. (I think it may help to live in the neighborhood of the school you want--check www.sfusd.edu to see if they say--but at any rate you certainly want to consider transportation. some parents I know drive their kids a half hour one way to school)
There are lots of places for kids - the Academy of Sciences, zoo, golden gate park, libraries, Randall Museum, etc. etc. There's lots of public transit, though MUNI has many well-publicized problems.
As I write this it seems rather general and unsatisfactory, so perhaps I should just say that you should feel free to e-mail me if you have specific questions.
An East Coast transplant here. I used to live in SF and moved to Oakland, so I may be a bit biased but here are my two cents.
* Weather -- East Bay is much better but micro-climate is real. Bernal Heights is nice and warm and some parts of Berkeley is foggy and cooler.
* Surfing -- Water is cold. You need a wet suit. Better surfing is in North Bay (Stinson beach) or a bit more south (Pacifica, San Mateo) or even closer to Santa Cruz and below. Residential areas near Ocean Beach are cold and foggy, if sunny conditions are important to you.
* Real Estate -- prices are high everywhere but I feel that you get more space and nature in East Bay than SF. Many buildings in SF are attached to the neighbors, which we don't like. Although there is only a 5 ft gap between us and our neighbor, not having walls attached with neighbors can be an important consideration.
* Schools -- hands-down Berkeley public schools are overall better. SF has some great public schools but it's a lottery system and there are handful of schools that underperform. Most of my friends whose kids didn't get into the desired public schools all go to private schools. Because SF is bigger than Berkeley and the school choice isn't based on proximity to home, you could have a great school in your neighborhood but be assigned to a school on the other side of the city with a 45 min. commute to school! Berkeley uses zone systems and it's a smaller city. There really aren't "bad" schools in Berkeley. When SF moves to a zoned system, maybe it'll be better but I imagine that home prices within the desired school zone may be incredibly high. If you end up doing private school, it seems that SF private school prices are a bit higher than East Bay private school prices.
* Commute -- If you work near Embarcadero Bart station, living in SF does not guarantee a shorter commute. I work near Montgomery Bart station, and my colleagues who live near Ocean Beach have a longer commute than I who live in North Oakland. Bart ride for me is 18 min. My coworker's muni ride is 40 min.
* Relaxed -- There are parts of SF that offer "relaxed" residential feel / proximity to nature, but overall we feel that East Bay has more parks, forests, and relaxed feel. You don't have to sacrifice walkability. SF and parts of Berkeley are walkable.
Also consider Alameda which is a short and relaxing 20 min. ferry ride to embarcadero in SF. Public schools are good, and the entire island is walkable/bikable. It has great parks, restaurants, and the water is warm -- you can actually swim in the ocean and the beach is nice. Piedmont is another great option in East Bay with the best rated public schools out of all the locations mentioned here.
I assume you're not interested in Oakland for reasons you haven't mentioned. Welcome and good luck!
If you like the walkability of NYC, you won’t like the Berkeley hills. Many of those neighborhoods don’t even have sidewalks. The flats are much more walkable. I live in a VERY walkable neighborhood about a mile west from Cal. The weather can suck, especially in the summer. Fog comes directly across the golden gate. Sometimes the window for sunshine is only 1pm-4pm.
It’s a zoned lottery system here too. Public schools in Berkeley are much better than SF.
I’m an East Bay native and there is NO WAY I would swim or surf at Ocean Beach. Too cold and the ripe tide can be intense.
Seems like your best bet would be Berkeley- but not the hills. In the flats you will have better weather, walkability, easier commute to SF, good schools etc. You might get less space than the hills but it will likely be more or comparable to SF. I grew up in NYC. Everyone I know who is used to a walkable city has a hard time with the EB hills. It doesn't feel like a city when you need to drive everywhere. If you live in the flats near BART or the highway (depending on your planned commute) I think you will meet most of your wants.
Thank you! That is very helpful. I’m open to Oakland too (lived there for four years). Is there anywhere that is walkable, has a view, and accessible to BART by bike or scooter? That would hit all boxes. I don’t really care about sharing walls, although a yard I enjoy would be nice!
I don't have a lot to add but I do think Berkeley is very walkable and easy to minimize driving- except if you live in the hills. if you don't like driving and are considering berkeley I would look at north berkeley to be close to bart and for walkability
Welcome back!
we love Albany because of what you described, weather is nicer that SF (more days with sun), it’s semi-urban (can run all my errands by foot, Solano Ave has all you need!), schools are highly rated (that’s the main reason we moved to Albany), and it’s just a short walk / bike ride / drive to North Berkeley Bart which takes 25ish minutes to Embarcadero, there is also the SF Transbay bus stopping on Solano which is very convenient (also to Embarcadero).
Berkeley Hills are really not walkable. I grew up in the hills and now love living in the flats of El Cerrito. I agree with the previous poster that getting to Embarcadero by BART is much faster and more reliable than Muni, I looked into moving to San Francisco when I worked there are decided it was much faster from El Cerrito BART. For East Bay walkability, look into Central Berkeley, Elmwood, Rockridge, Albany, El Cerrito. Public schools in those areas would be fine as well. For surfing, San Mateo or Santa Cruz would be warmer for surfing. If you live along a Cal Train line, you will not be too far from the beautiful San Mateo open spaces and the ocean, and have easy public transportation access to San Francisco. I personally don't know too much about San Mateo County, maybe look into San Carlos or Belmont.
SF public schools are a disaster in multiple ways. My kids had a number of classmates whose families moved to Albany specifically in order to escape the SF school system, and that was before all the recent political mess with the school board getting recalled. The people I know with kids in the Berkeley public schools, on the other hand, have been generally satisfied.
Given the various factors you list, I'd suggest looking at a more walkable neighborhood in the East Bay, rather than in the hills - North Berkeley, Albany, Alameda - or even in Marin where you'd get better surfing access, though a worse commute to Embarcadero. And I agree with the previous responder about a commute across SF often being worse than a commute across the Bay!
Albany! Great schools, the whole town is one square mile so everyone can walk everywhere. Your kids will be able to walk to their friends’ houses. We live near Solano Avenue and never need to use our car to get to restaurants because there are so many great options in walking distance. It’s not Brooklyn. Everything closes early, for one thing. But it’s very walkable.
Chiming in with a vote for East Bay! Consider Berkeley, Kensington, Albany, El Cerrito, Orinda, Rockridge. I think North Berkeley or Temescal might be a good vibe for you. If you are near a BART in the East Bay, you will have a relatively easy commute to Embarcadero BART, which will not necessarily be true of some of the SF neighborhoods you are mentioning. I don’t know if this is something you would consider, but I wonder if renting for a year or so before buying might be a good option. Your daughter is young enough that you would still have time to make a move to the school district you want for her. I also hate to drive and I live in El Cerrito near a BART station, which is relatively central and very easy to navigate by foot or public transit, to get to the city and other fun spots. Lesser known area but worth considering.
We live in the Berkeley flats (near San Pablo Park) and love it for many reasons (weather, walking/biking, etc.). BUSD is a wonderful lottery-based school system; the curriculum is basically the same at all schools so it's hard to go wrong with any of them. With the lottery system, you may not end up at the school closest to you, but you would qualify for the bus if the school is at least 1.5 miles from your home. If you're considering the Berkeley Hills, you may want to think about potential fire danger and how expensive fire insurance will likely be.
My favorite Oakland neighborhood (that I think fits all your boxes) is the Piedmont Avenue neighborhood in North Oakland - which is VERY walkable (we were a 1-car family for 8 years there and I could do everything w/ my kids in an Ergo/Stroller, including groceries), does have a bit of a view (especially if you walk up in the Mountain View Cemetery, which is a GEM of a place), and it's accessible to BART - MacArthur station. I used to get dropped off there daily or walk (it's a little less than a mile from the top of Piedmont). I have the fondest memories of living in that neighborhood w/ little kids. Also, the microclimate is excellent - don't underestimate the value of warm sunny Oakland days, when SF and Berkeley are in the fog. "The finger" of fog comes right in from the GGB and sits on North Berkeley... those folks don't know how good it is just a few miles south. And Albany! Whew- the foggiest and coldest. Good luck!
We live right in between Thousand Oaks and the Berkeley Hills (near Great Stone Face Park) and I love it! We have views of the city and the golden gate bridge, can run to Tilden park, see deer frequently, and overall it's pretty quiet. We can also walk (albeit there's some hill on the way back) to Solano, the shops on Arlington towards Kensington, or to Colusa Circle - there are even nice paths like Indian Rock path and still sidewalks everywhere.
Adding my two cents: I lived in SF for 20 years and loved it, but we moved to Berkeley 5 years ago for better weather, better housing (more for your money), and better schools (kids were 6 and 8 at the time). The further south you go in the East Bay, the better/warmer the weather. We live in south Berkeley very near border with Oakland and we have better summer weather than north Berkeley, which gets the fog rolling in the Golden Gate. Albany, El Cerrito, and Richmond all get it, too (Carl, the fog, that is). We picked the area for that reason and are pretty close to Ashby BART, which is how my husband commutes to work. If you want a view, you could look up toward the Claremont hotel, though the area is mostly large fancy homes. You'd do better looking in upper Rockridge, but then you're looking at schools in OUSD which is a mixed bag, particularly for middle and high school. This being the Bay Area, it is extremely hard to find a place that checks all the boxes, but you're sure to find somewhere that checks most of them! Good luck to you!
Manhattanite, grew up in Hell's Kitchen. It's been 23 years since I've lived here (with breaks in other cities both east and west coast).
We have ended up in Oakland north of Lake Merritt and find it really walkable. Most Berkeley neighborhoods, and really all Bay Area (E Bay) neighborhoods have pockets of commerce/resources, but then dead zones between neighborhoods. Lakeshore with its farmers' market and other amenity shops (pharmacy, bakery, clothing, coffee, bank) works well for us. Plus, we can take transbay express buses into the city, which usually are more reliable than BART!
Welcome back to California! If you're looking for walkable, good schools, relaxed pace, and easy commute into the Embarcadero, I would consider Alameda. We lived in Berkeley for 10 years before moving to Alameda and really wish we had done it sooner. Kids can walk/bike to school, the whole island is flat with lots of bike paths and there are lots of water activities (lots of opportunities to SUP, row, and kite surf in Alameda). You can easily get to fruitvale bart, transbay bus, or there are multiple stops going to the Embarcadero so the commute can be very reasonable. We still go into Berkeley, Oakland, and SF frequently but Alameda really has most everything we need.
In terms of overall school district health, you are definitely safer with Berkeley or Albany, but if you are considering Oakland, Upper Rockridge is probably the only neighborhood that has what you added in terms of walkability, views, and accessibility to BART. When we moved here, we called it our "Venn Diagram House." We have the space and the view my husband wanted but we're close enough to College Ave and BART for me that I don't feel like we've moved to the suburbs. I can walk to College Ave in 20 minutes or 10 minutes the other direction to Lake Temescal Park in the trees. We're happy to be zoned to Hillcrest Elementary and excited to try Oak Tech for high school.
You haven’t mentioned what your real estate budget is. If you wanted to consider Oakland and have a deep pocket and the lucky stars shining upon you, a section of Rockridge checks all the boxes. You can consult the Oakland catchment map but a portion of Rockridge is zoned for Hilcrest elementary and middle and Oakland Tech for high school and another portion of Rockridge is zoned for Chabot elementary, Claremont middle and Oakland Tech. These are some of the most highly coveted schools in Oakland. This area is mostly walkable, some houses have a beautiful view, close to BART and other Transportstion options, close to or right in a shopping district with cool restaurants, shops, library, and urban amenities as well as parks. Houses in this area are expensive but beautiful and the neighborhood is family friendly and residential with lots of trees while also being so close to the city living.
Lower Piedmont is walkable and Piedmont schools and police, fire department are excellent. There is a portion of lower Piedmont that borders Oakland near Piedmont Avenue — my personal favorite area with amazing cafes, restaurants and shops. Some have a nice view, it’s about 1.5 miles to Temescal BART (def. Bike or scooter distance) but Transbay bus is an exceptionally easy, fast, and clean option and right at your doorstep.
If I were a rich man, these are the two neighborhoods that I have always dreamed of buying a house and raising our family. Alas, they are out of reach for us common folks. But, perhaps you can make it. We have friends who are two doctor parents and startup tech people who played the startup lotto right and their houses are in one of the areas mentioned — close to BART, walkable, view of the bay, a big house and best schools in Oakland. Best of luck!