Poor Supervision at Preschool
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Chaotic Preschool
Dec 2010
My daughter started preschool in September, and in many ways it is wonderful. She is normally shy, but I see her coming out of her shell and making friends. She is in a room with mostly 2 and 3 year olds. However, I'm concerned about the level of chaos I see in the classroom, and I'm hoping the BPN community can tell me if my concern is justified, or what I'm describing is par for the course with this age group.
There have been a number of incidents in the school with a couple of children hitting and biting other kids (even drawing blood), with little action on the part of the school to address the problem; and when I observe the classroom, it is usually mayhem- multiple children crying, screaming, and fighting at any given time. The teachers seem stretched very thin. And the Director recently left with very little notice. One of the teachers will be taking on his administrative responsibilities (which means she is less available in the classroom).
During the preschool selection process, I visited a number of Montessori schools, and I was impressed with the order and calm of the classroom. However, I chose this play-based school because I thought it would be better for my daughter and her social skills. (I'm not concerned about ''academics'' at this age.) And because I really liked the director at the time (who has left). I was willing to overlook the chaos in September, but I thought the environment would be less stressful by December. My daughter does seem happy at the school, and she is attached to her teachers and making friends. We're coming upon renewal time, and I'm trying to decide if I should sign up for another year or try a different school. Advice? Unsure parent
It sounds like you have valid concerns that you should look into further. My children have both gone to play based preschools and their classrooms have not been chaotic. Busy but not chaotic. In fact, Ive always been amazed that there is a well thought out plan behind all the activity. At the start of the first year there were sometimes kids crying because of the transition to preschool. Other than that, it always seems to be a happy place. If I were you, I'd listen to your gut and check out some other schools. Then again, if your gut tells you your child is thriving thefr, that's important too. Good luck! Beth, Oakland
I am pretty sure that i have a child in the class you are describing, and I have to say [if I'm guessing correctly that we're at the same school] that I don't really perceive the same level of chaos that you describe -- I would be very happy to discuss with you offline in more detail...but in brief, let me say this -- we have an older child who was in a highly regarded playbased preschool a couple of years ago, and our main concern about it was that it was *way* too chaotic -- it was much larger, and the yard was laid out in such a way that the teachers were not always able to see what was happening. I, too, considered montessori, but couldn't find a program that seemed quite right for our family for a variety of reasons. Instead, we switched to our current school, and I am much happier with it (so, do know that things can be much worse, and if switching, you would want to choose carefully...)
As far as a general reply to the question, I do think that transition times, especially drop off and pick up, are often the most chaotic times for this age group, so it might be very helpful to try to observe at another time to see what is happening. and of course, most important would be the teacher's responses to your concerns. here again i have been very impressed with our current school. But let's talk more, if you'd like, as I do think that we may be able to discuss details and approaches more if our kids are, in fact, classmates. ml
Hi there, This may come down to parental preference. For me, many preschools are on the chaotic side. We're taking my son out of preschool precisely because he IS more of a loner and doesn't like the noise and chaos so much (and our play-based preschool sounds much less chaotic than yours). Our son does better with one-on-one playdates with other kids he likes.
As a parent, I get overwhelmed with lots of preschoolers running around and making noise and being chaotic. And I have years of coping mechanisms. I think it must be a lot harder on many preschoolers, but they have no choice, so they cope as well as they can.
Mostly, though, you sounded fairly unsatisfied with the school. So I say go with your gut and find another school. And if it's an option, you can take your daughter out of preschool completely. She'll have plenty of time to learn to socialize when she's 5 (or 4) and she (and the other kids!) are more mature. Right now, she mostly needs attentive adults.
All the best to you and your family opting out of preschool
My daughter attended a play based preschool which was not nearly as chaotic as you describe, but which did have a lot going on. After her three year old year we visited The Berkeley School (Berkeley Montessori at the time). I'll never forget how strikingly and visibly she relaxed in a calmer environment. Her whole little body changed. Ultimately I moved her there. She didn't feel academically ''pushed;'' she felt free and safe to explore. She also felt freer to interact socially in an environment where she didn't feel such sensory overload. There is a lot of space to play and run and imagine and be silly, and-- this is key--the environment allows kids to pace themselves and self-regulate with some quiet time to explore and investigate and discover. I wish I had realized sooner how stressful the high energy chaos was for her. TBS turned out, for her at least, to be a better place to work on the social skills and gain confidence as a learner. I think the program at the preschool now is even stronger- drawing from Montessori, and Reggio Emilia, and Teaching for Understanding. I suggest you visit- and pay attention to your daughter's body language when you do. I wish you well in finding a good fit for her. Happy mom of a happy girl
Finding the right fit for your child is key. My very boisterous, confident, physical boy attended a play based preschool that may have been chaotic for some but was perfect for him. For his preK year we checked out another very well known preschool and I was shocked that it was so quiet you could hear a pin dropped. In fact, a boy who knew my son yelled a greeting and was immediately told to use an inside voice. As we left my insightful boy said- ''that place is too calm for me!'' I agreed. good luck
My daughter doesn't get much attention at preschool
Oct 2008
Last year we considered a number of preschools and got into our #1 choice. It is one of the more expensive ones but we thought it would be worth it because we were so excited about it, and thought our daughter would thrive there. Unfortunately, after about a month, we are really disappointed with the school and the teachers. Our daughter, who has lots of friends outside of preschool, doesn't have any friends in school, and the teachers don't seem to make an effort to facilitate friendships. She doesn't like to go to school because she says she is lonely there, and she is always playing by herself when we pick her up (and she is a very social kid so this is really not normal for her). Of the four teachers in the classroom with 20 students, only one of them says hello to her when she arrives or seems to pay any notice to her, and she isn't always there. The other teachers are arriving at the same time as the children so they are too busy setting themselves up to help the children settle in. One of the teachers seems to outright dislike my daughter, since she never interacts with her at all throughout the day. Basically my daughter just doesn't get much attention from either the teachers or the other students, and with the amount we are paying for her to go there this seems rather outrageous to me.
My questions are: (1) is this normal for a preschool or below- par for what we should expect? (2) If it's not up to reasonable standards, should we (a) pull her out and try to move her to another school (which would have its own problems because she would have to adjust all over again), or (b) complain to the head of the school (but then I'm afraid we'd be seen as whiners and our daughter might be treated worse rather than better)? BTW, my daughter is 3 years old and has been in a pre-school type setting before, but it was just 4 kids with one teacher, and she thrived there. -feeling so sad for my daughter
I'm sorry for your predicament. I don't think what you described sounds like a normal preschool situation. My three year old son just started preschool in September, and the atmosphere seems totally different. The teachers are welcoming, the teachers acknowledge all of the kids, and the kids seem to generally all get the same amount of attention (though it varies everyday). I would absolutely speak with the director. I don't think its ''whiny'' to ask questions about your daughter's experience in school. If it doesn't get better after you talk to the director, I would definitely consider a switch to a different place. Sure, the transition will be hard on your daughter, but it's much better than having her in place where she is not comfortable. I hope things get better for her (and for you). anon
Your questions were: (1) is this normal for a preschool or below-par for what we should expect?
No, definately not normal. Our preschool really worked on everyone making friends and every single one of the teachers greeted my child very happily every single day.
(2) If it's not up to reasonable standards, should we (a) pull her out and try to move her to another school, or (b) complain to the head of the school?
Pull her out. The school and/or teachers are not going to change, even if you complain. Your daughter will be ''happy'' to readjust if she can start acting like her normal self again (outgoing). anon
You are in a tough spot. It is hard to complain when your kid is there. I would recommend talking to the head of the school about what adjustment is like for 3 year olds if nothing else but to start to gather more information about the competence of the leadership there. I would also look around and other options and check-in with other parents. It can take a while for kids to adapt, but if it is not a match, it is better to figure that out early and have back up options. It can be hard to get into places so it is good to look early. Anon
1) This does not seem normal, no matter how much money you are paying. My son goes to a preschool with up to 24 kids and only 2 teachers in the room, and both teachers always pay attention to every child. When we walk in the room in the morning, the teachers always say ''Good Morning'' and interact with him. To have one teacher consistently ignore your child is unacceptable. It's not clear why your daughter isn't making friends, but it could be that she's uncomfortable with her teachers and the whole situation, not the other kids in particular.
2) I would do both: pull your child out AND talk to the head of the school. Tell the director exactly what is happening, which teacher or teachers are ignoring your child, and that even if the situation is fixed (teacher reprimanded or removed), you are leaving anyway as your daughter is not thriving there and it is not a good fit for her. Find another school where the teachers are more caring and attentive. It doesn't have to be the most expensive school. In the end, it's the teachers that make the biggest difference. Concerned parent
I have my doctorate in child development and focus on matching children to high quality childcare and preschool settings, based on the child's unique needs coupled with professional evaluations of the care settings. We know from research that the ''quality'' of a setting is hugely important in terms of a child's later development. ''Quality'' can be difficult to assess because it is nuanced. That being said, a care setting needs to not only be high quality, but match your daughter's unique needs. Having not conducted an evaluation of this site, I can't say whether or not it is high quality, but based on your responses, it sounds as though it is not meeting your child's needs. I would be happy to talk with you more about this if you are interested. Melissa G
Hi- I had a similar situation - we were accepted at what we thought was an excellent preschool, after much stress of applying to several schools. But when school started we were disappointed in mnay ways and my son did not thrive at all.
We attempted to improve things by talking to the director and head of school. And we stuck it out for several months until we finally moved him.
In hindsight, we should have moved him sooner. He developed a negative view of himself and it took almost a year to improve his self-esteem. We were devastated that he referred to himself as ''trouble'' when he was 3 years old. The teacher that did not like him took over the class and it was horrible after that. We were so upset that his first school experience was so negative.
I think you should bring your concerns to the director. Try to get the situation improved. You are totally justified to discuss your concerns with the director. If there is no improvement with 2 weeks, I would start looking for a new school. It was a mistake to let my son stay in a preschool where he was not adjusted, thriving, and happy for several months. I know its hard to find a new situation, but there are good schools with room. At this early age, feeling positive is very important. Wiser now
Hi, had to add my 2 cents.... We were in a similar predicament and at the time we were on 5+ waiting lists to get into any school. I have to say that it's difficult to get a real feel for a school especially with so much pressure to just get accepted into a ''good'' school.
We were disappointed in our very expensive beautiful school. Like other parents attending we honestly believed because we paid top dollar we were doing the very best for our child. We overlooked important red flags and we had no where to go, everyone was full. Our child's class was large, over 21 kids. I would visit on my lunch to find kids crying/screaming and on occasion unsupervised in the play yard. Our child came home with scratch marks on his face and bite marks. We should have pulled him out right away. We continued to work with the two teachers who repeatedly told us there were no problems, all was well; all was developmentally normal at this age. ''Kids will be kids, they all bite, hit, scratch...'' I think you should listen to your gut instinct because we never did. Our child did not want to go to school and we ignored his screams because he's a spirited child. He developed low self esteem and we can't even mention the word SCHOOL.
I want you to know that it was a BIG MISTAKE to keep him in a school that did not care for him ie. make him feel happy and well adjusted. Every child, hey even adults like to feel appreciated and loved; part of a team/a positive daily experience. Talking to the teachers was useless in our case and the director was part of the class team. Everyone knew everything about all the kids/their quirks, personalities, etc. Everyone talked.
Six months later our child is well adjusted, working on his confidence, happy and loves school. We found teachers that simply care about kids and let none slip through the cracks. Just the other day I found one of the teachers hugging the children than squeezing our child in a warm loving hug and my heart broke for a moment. Engage with kids like this? Wow! Still kicking myself... First Time Parent/Newbie
Injury on the playground at school
May 2007
I know that there was laready a big discussion about school playground injuries and who is responsible, but I have some more variables. What if a child fell from a playstructure and was slightly injured, enough to necessitate a trip to the ER? What if the teachers on duty admit that nobody was watching the play structure? What if school officials had been saying for months that the surface underneath the structure was not adequate (and this is corroborated by a playground inspector)? Luckily, my child was not seriously injured, but it cost us an ER visit and a few chiropractic visits to determine this. I'm not looking to make trouble for the school, but I also can't afford to pay all of these out-of-pocket expenses. Should I try to negotiate with the school to cover the medical costs? Really Poor
I'd let it go. You said your kid was only slightly injured. And no one was watching the play equipment. Are you certain your child didn't jump - maybe that's why he didn't get all that hurt. I know that my kid has had his worse injuries in the seconds that I have taken my eyes off him. I would imagine that it's impossible to see everything on a playground at all times. These things happen
Daughter's long ponytail cut off by another child
April 2004
Greetings,
My child has never had a haircut in her entire life, and yesterday her gorgeous, yellow-gold, below-the-waist ponytail was sliced off at her neck by another 3 or 4 yr old while at daycare. The child that cut my child's hair off also had enough time to give herself a haircut before the classroom supervisor discovered (in plain sight!) the girls. The scissors were available in an open bin as is classroom habit.
A month and a half ago another child snipped a chunk of hair off my daughter's head directly above her eyes while she was playing on the playground. No teacher saw or reported it, I was the one who discovered it and talked to supervisors, teachers, classroom attendents and parents and students trying to determine what happened. I was assured this would not happen again.
My daughter misses her hair very much, and I, I am embarrassed to report, am devestated by the lose of her long hair.
I understand I should focus on my gratitude that my child did not lose an eye or a limb! There are bigger, more important things to care about than vain hair length.
I'm not an expert, but I do notice that simply telling a 3 or four year old child to NOT to do something is not the best thing to do: one must REMOVE the dangerous item.
Any words of wisdom? What would you do? diana
I find myself disturbed by your posting about your child's hair being cut at daycare by another child for two reasons: why are there scissors available to children that are so sharp they can cut hair (most children's scissors are so dull they barely cut paper) and why has this been able to occur not once but twice? I am worried about the level of supervision of children at your preschool.
I agree that you can't really enforce consequences for a 3 or 4 year old cutting someone's hair...they can however have very clear rules about when and how to use scissors. I don't like that scissors are readily available either. It seems to me the school should be aware that the scissor situation as it is now is not working. As you pointed out your child could have been seriously injured by those scissors (I cringe imagining a child poking your child in the eye by accident).
Personally, I would consider switching preschools. If you feel comfortable at the school then I would ask that scissors only be brought out for art projects or be kept in an area under constant supervision by an adult. I would also ask that they be replaced with duller scissors that don't have sharp blades.
I would take this as an opportunity to evaluate the school. Are you comfortable with the level of supervision of children? Did you feel they responded well to this problem and have instituted ways to ensure it doesn't reoccur?
I don't blame you for being upset about your daughter's beautiful hair. Hope it grows back soon! sympathetic mom
I would pull my child out of that preschool immediately! It might be a limb or eye next time, because obviously their supervision is extremely poor. The fact that your daughter's hair was cut TWICE shows that the neglect was not an isolated incident.
Don't feel bad about being devastated! Hair is an important part of self-identity, and what happened to your child is terrible. My daughter also has very long hair that took her years to grow, and if someone cut it off I would be furious. I am not a litigious person, but if I were I would definitely sue! Samson's mother :-)
I would simply let the director know that you expect the scissors to be put away where the children do not have free access to them without immediate adult supervision. This wasn't an isolated incident, so you have every right to be concerned, for whatever reason (safety or vanity).
As a former director of a program with older children, I would have been more than willing to respond in such a way, even if it was just to be certain that you knew I was taking your concern seriously. Paula C.
You said it in your post, you are glad she did not lose an eye or a limb. I am not an educator, but the unsupervised availabilty of scissors with this age group is clearly dangerous and unacceptable as far as I am concerned. The fact that it happened twice is frightening also. I can only advise what I would do; take your child out of there. elizabeth lee
Just saw your posting re: the hair. For your daughter's sake, I would immediately take hold of myself and get my feelings out of it. (I know how you feel, but it's soooooo much better to teach them not to be stymied by physical/looks stuff!!!) Then I would take her to a real salon and get her a real, big- girl neato/cool-o haircut as just a mom-daughter thing. Then I'd take her to lunch somewhere special, where I would explain that sometimes, when life gives you lemons, you make lemonade. Then I would explain to her that in her life she will look a lot of different ways (and so will other children.) It's important to learn how to feel good in yourself while you look different ways!
Then I would probably take her out of the school. The thing with unsupervised hair cutting really makes me scared. Unsupervised scissors are a scary thing! another mom
I don't blame you for being upset about either the loss of your daughter's hair OR the danger factor. I'd be furious. I don't think a daycare should keep scissors that sharp within reach of a child that age. You are absolutely right - she could have poked an eye out. The scissors at my child's preschool can barely cut paper, let alone saw off a big hunk of hair. I can't imagine the teachers at my child's school not noticing this in progress, either. I think the school is negligent and you should tell them so and find another place to put your daughter. I'd ask for a refund on my last month's tuition, too, to compensate you for the time and energy you are having to spend dealing with this. And they are lucky it's not more. anon
I'd be VERY pissed off--about the loss of the hair that I valued (and took care of) for so long, about the safety issue, and about the other kid feeling it was OKAY to use the scissors on my daughter's hair. I would let the kid's parent(s) AND the kid herself/himself know that I am very unhappy with what happened. harumph
1) Try to make the best out the situation by getting her hair cut or ''fixed'' professionally by a childrens barber or stylist; 2) Consider switching to a more responsible daycare provider; and 3) Consider filing a formal complaint with the appropriate regulatory authorities and/or licensing agency. Anon.
The daycare has scissors ''in an open bin'' available for children to use unsupervised?? Nobody notices they are cutting each others hair?? This is the second time this happens??
Wow. Sounds to me like your daycare has some real problems. I also have a three year old with long, beautiful, never-been- cut hair and if her hair got cut at preschool, I would be beside myself with anger.
I would have serious words with the teachers and management about the situation. The scissors would have to go and supervision dramatically increased or I would take my child somewhere else. I would also talk to the offending child's parents about what happened, so that this child can be made to understand that cutting hair is completely not acceptable behavior.
And don't apologize for your vanity about your child's hair. I think it is very reasonable to be upset for all the reasons above and just because you (and she) loved her hair. -Loves long hair, too
I'd consider reporting the daycare provider to whomever regulates them. Having scissors easily accessible to a three-year-old child seems to me to be a major violation of some rule. I can completely understand why you were devastated by the loss of her hair. You shouldn't feel the need to apologize for your feelings. (It took me weeks to get up the courage to have my daughter's bangs trimmed the first time, but it was causing her to rub her eyes and we had to do it even though I wanted to let her hair all grow as you did.) I'd be more interested in what the daycare provider is saying now, since you were assured this would not happen again. It seems like an apology is hardly sufficient but certainly warranted, and an explanation of how they will prevent this from ever happening again. incredulous
Yikes! Our daycare has a few transitions a year, but almost always a floater teacher is converted to the FTE spot or they find an FTE within 2-3 weeks... Our daycare pays a living wage with great retirement and health benefits so rentention and recruitment are both strong. We chose the center since many teachers had 5, 10 or 20 yrs of tenure! Care should not struggle during a transition and they should have a pool of subs they can consistently draw upon in these situations. I would call licensing to report concerns so they receive an unannounced visit. That will give you a pulse of if things are ok in this transition. But I would also look at other centers. If they lost 2 teachers in a month and say it will take a full quarter to replace them that says there are issues with management or inadequate comp and benefits...
The advice you got to call licensing was just plain spiteful and prompted me to give you my two cents. Have you tried talking with the daycare? You said in your post that staffing ratios are being met, and maybe there is a misunderstanding about the lunch? Unless you talk with the daycare you will not receive any reassurances or enough information to make an informed decision about how to proceed. Just like your employer does not know how long you will stay with the company, daycares and preschools have no control over how long a teacher will stay. As a director of a thirty-year-old preschool, we have had the hardest time hiring this year. And not because of a lack of trying! Unemployment is at its lowest which means people are asking for salaries not commiserate with education or experience. That combined with the fact that a lot of people do not seem to have any work ethic or professionalism whatsoever has made it extremely difficult to hire teachers who are truly interested in working with children. People literally click and apply for the job. I do all the leg work of making dozens of calls to “applicants” who either do not have voicemail set up, voicemail is full, and a message cannot be left, or just don’t bother to return calls. If they do set up an appointment, nine times out of ten they do not show up! My advice would be that if you were previously happy with the daycare, talk to them. The grass always looks greener on the other side. Communication is the key! Good luck.
I personally would start looking for another daycare. It's not a good sign that two teachers in the same class quit at the same time. That could signal a problem with the director's relationship with the staff that won't go away (do you know if there is a history of staff turnover?) It's also not a good sign that parents are being kept in the dark about when replacement teachers might come on board, or what the daycare is doing to recruit new teachers. I agree with the previous poster who suggested calling licensing to inquire about staff-to-child ratios. If teachers from other classes are filling in, isn't that shorting the other classes? You don't have to file a complaint to find out if your daycare is in compliance. All daycares are subject to yearly unannounced visits; maybe it's time for your daycare to get one.